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Reformation Day – and What Led Me To Back to Catholicism
The Catholic Thing ^ | 10/28/11 | Francis J. Beckwith

Posted on 10/28/2011 6:59:29 AM PDT by markomalley

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To: CynicalBear

Luther founded your religion. What makes him wrong and Calvin right?

Calvin was the first to say that only that which is found in scripture is permissible to Christians.


461 posted on 11/01/2011 6:02:57 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: CynicalBear

There were numerous German versions of the Bible before Luther introduced his corrupted translation,as 19th century Protestant scholar Philip Wace Schaff testifies.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/luther02.html
“Luther was not the first, but by far the greatest translator of the German Bible, and is as inseparably connected with it as Jerome is with the Latin Vulgate. He threw the older translation into the shade and out of use, and has not been surpassed or even equaled by a successor. There are more accurate versions for scholars (as those of De Wette and Weizsäcker), but none that can rival Luther’s for popular authority and use.
The civilization of the barbarians in the dark ages began with the introduction of Christianity, and the translation of such portions of the Scriptures as were needed in public worship.
The Gothic Bishop Wulfila or Wölflein (i.e., Little Wolf) in the fourth century translated nearly the whole Bible from the Greek into the Gothic dialect. It is the earliest monument of Teutonic literature, and the basis of comparative Teutonic philology. (2)
During the fourteenth century some unknown scholars prepared a new translation of the whole Bible into the Middle High German dialect. It slavishly follows the Latin Vulgate. It may be compared to Wiclif’s English Version (1380), which was likewise made from the Vulgate, the original languages being then almost unknown in Europe. A copy of the New Testament of this version has been recently published, from a manuscript in the Premonstratensian convent of Tepl in Bohemia. (3) Another copy is preserved in the college library at Freiberg in Saxony. (4) Both are from the fourteenth century, and agree almost word for word with the first printed German Bible, but contain, besides the New Testament, the apocryphal letter of St. Paul to the Laodiceans, which is a worthless compilation of a few sentences from the genuine writings of the apostle. (5)
After the invention of the printing-press, and before the Reformation, this mediaeval German Bible was more frequently printed than any other except the Latin Vulgate. (6) No less than seventeen or eighteen editions appeared between 1462 and 1522, at Strassburg, Augsburg, Nürnberg, Cöln, Lübeck, and Halberstadt (fourteen in the High, three or four in the Low German dialect). Most of them are in large folio, in two volumes, and illustrated by wood-cuts. The editions present one and the same version (or rather two versions,—one High German, the other Low German) with dialectical alterations and accommodations to the textual variations of the MSS. of the Vulgate, which was in a very unsettled condition before the Clementine recension (1592). The revisers are as unknown as the translators.
The spread of this version, imperfect as it was, proves the hunger and thirst of the German people for the pure word of God, and prepared the way for the Reformation. It alarmed the hierarchy. Archbishop Berthold of Mainz, otherwise a learned and enlightened prelate, issued, Jan. 4, 1486, a prohibition of all unauthorized printing of sacred and learned books, especially the German Bible, within his diocese, giving as a reason that the German language was incapable of correctly rendering the profound sense of Greek and Latin works, and that laymen and women could not understand the Bible. Even Geiler of Kaisersberg, who sharply criticised the follies of the world and abuses of the Church, thought it “an evil thing to print the Bible in German.”
Besides the whole Bible, there were numerous German editions of the Gospels and Epistles (Plenaria), and the Psalter, all made from the Vulgate. (7)
Luther could not be ignorant of this mediaeval version. He made judicious use of it, as he did also of old German and Latin hymns. Without such aid he could hardly have finished his New Testament in the short space of three months. (8) But this fact does not diminish his merit in the least; for his version was made from the original Hebrew and Greek, and was so far superior in every respect that the older version entirely disappeared. It is to all intents a new work.”


462 posted on 11/01/2011 6:06:15 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: BenKenobi
>> There are no original manuscripts of scripture in existence.<<

Doesn’t that make you wonder where the get the Greek and Hebrew lexicons then?

http://www.endtimepilgrim.org/puritans05.htm

463 posted on 11/01/2011 6:07:41 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: rzman21; CynicalBear
Luther founded your religion. What makes him wrong and Calvin right?

CB is a Lutheran? How do you know that?

Calvin was the first to say that only that which is found in scripture is permissible to Christians.

So what?

464 posted on 11/01/2011 6:08:51 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Natural Law
>>So you think you still have a shot?<<

What is it in you that needs to make it personal so often?

465 posted on 11/01/2011 6:09:17 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: metmom
>>CB is a Lutheran?<<

I am? First I heard of it. There are those boxes again.

466 posted on 11/01/2011 6:10:44 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: smvoice
That suggests you might under the control of a religious institution that tells you what you are, depending on your following their declarations and doctrine. Believe this, get the special cracker. Question this, be cursed. Typical MO of all cults. Put a pointy hat and a monstrance in the hand of an opinion, and suddenly he's an infallible truth.

Not being something is not the same as being something. Many proclaim here that they are Christian because they are not Catholic. When we enquire about their beliefs, their replies are tantamount to a handful or two of amorphous goo, shapeless and without permanent form, changing as the elements or a Chicago politician's allegiance. The Church has been diligent for 2000 years in attempting to understand and teach Christianity to each successor generation. Now we have groups of theological giants, each discovering new truths on a weekly or even daily basis, as long as the cash rolls in.

BTW you discerners of all truth: I am a she. Not a he.

So? Does it matter to your immortal soul if you are wrong? Does being female alleviate your position in your Judgement? Do you think that if you flash some estrogen or a tanned knee at Christ, He'll let you off with a warning?

467 posted on 11/01/2011 6:12:23 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: rzman21
>>Luther founded your religion.<<

Say what? Jesus was a Lutheran? When did that happen?

468 posted on 11/01/2011 6:13:07 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Not schismatic and heretical sects.


469 posted on 11/01/2011 6:15:24 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: CynicalBear

Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Not schismatic and heretical sects.


470 posted on 11/01/2011 6:15:37 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: CynicalBear

I know where they come from.

I already posted that in my post.

They come from the existing manuscripts that are available and the fragments that we do have from ancient times. Hence the references to the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus. At least in the Greek.

The oldest Hebrew manuscript prior to the Qumrun find is the Masoretic Text, which dates back to about 900 AD.

The Vulgate is 500 years older than the Masoretic text, and uses Hebrew sources that we don’t have now.

The Codexes are even older than either, and rely on the LXX.

No, no original manuscripts are extant at this period in time. In St. Jerome’s day, he had access to sources like Origen’s Hexapla, that we do not at present possess.


471 posted on 11/01/2011 6:15:37 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: MarkBsnr; smvoice; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
Many proclaim here that they are Christian because they are not Catholic.

Really? Who said that?

Almost everyone who is not Catholic who says they are a Christian says they are because they follow Christ, not because they're not Catholic.

472 posted on 11/01/2011 6:16:01 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear
"What is it in you that needs to make it personal so often?"

If asking what you think is a personal question is wrong, why are you asking me this?

473 posted on 11/01/2011 6:16:23 PM PDT by Natural Law (Transubstantiation - Change we can believe in.)
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To: metmom

Luther founded the Protestant religion.

It matters because no one believed that only that which is in scripture alone is permissible to Christians.

I guess then Calvin was a sort of 16th century Joseph Smith.


474 posted on 11/01/2011 6:17:41 PM PDT by rzman21
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To: CynicalBear

Says nothing about original manuscripts.

BTW, have you even seen a Gutenberg bible? :)

Quick question, what language was it in?


475 posted on 11/01/2011 6:18:48 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: MarkBsnr
>>Does that mean that you are able to tell the difference between evil and good?<<

By there fruits.

476 posted on 11/01/2011 6:21:49 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

I don’t have a religion.

I have Christ.


477 posted on 11/01/2011 6:21:54 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: BenKenobi

I was thinking more of those he questioned or rejected. I suspect Luther thought that if the Scriptures didn’t fit his view then it wasn’t Scripture. Old habits die hard.


478 posted on 11/01/2011 6:24:24 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: rzman21
Luther founded the Protestant religion.

That's a matter of opinion. I don't think he intended to start a new religion as much as people did it in his name later.

It matters because no one believed that only that which is in scripture alone is permissible to Christians.

IOW, they learned to disbelieve made up accounts of *oral tradition*. That can only be an improvement.

I guess then Calvin was a sort of 16th century Joseph Smith.

Again,.....So what?

Why do Catholics post to me about what Luther or Calvin believed as if it mattered to me?

479 posted on 11/01/2011 6:25:38 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
Many proclaim here that they are Christian because they are not Catholic.

Really? Who said that?

You're kidding, right?

Almost everyone who is not Catholic who says they are a Christian says they are because they follow Christ, not because they're not Catholic.

They follow the image that they see in the mirror, after breakfasting on YOPIOS. Either you follow the institution that Jesus Created and the Holy Spirit Commissioned at Pentecost or else you do not.

480 posted on 11/01/2011 6:25:56 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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