Reformation Day – and What Led Me To Back to Catholicism

The Catholic Thing ^ | 10/28/11 | Francis J. Beckwith

[TexConfederate1861]

One correction: Purgatory is an invention of the Western Church.

The Eastern Orthodox Church has never taught or believed in Purgatory. Nor did the Eastern Church Fathers.

[TexConfederate1861]

Protestants did follow the same canon UNTIL the Roundheads under Cromwell decided to remove those books THEY felt were not correct. The 1611 King James Version originally included the Apocrypha, etc.

[TexConfederate1861]

The Assyrians are NESTORIANS. Not a good example to use.

[TexConfederate1861]

You are really asking for it. Honoring Jesus Christ and slandering his Holy Mother is blasphemous.

I wouldn’t go outside during a lightning storm, if I were u.
Could be dangerous.

[rzman21]

I consider them an authoritative interpretation of Holy Scripture that are far more authentic than any iteration of 21st century Baptist preacher.

[rzman21]

The feeling is mutual. Evangelicals are heretics whose definition of “Biblical” is subjective.

[rzman21]

You haven’t looked too hard. Even the Orthodox regard the Pope as first and as the Successor of St. Peter, even though they don’t believe St. Peter’s prerogatives transferred to the Bishop of Rome.

http://www.americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/ecfpapacy.htmhttp://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/papacy.htm

[rzman21]

That doesn’t change the fact Baptists are Nestorians plain and simple.

[rzman21]

The Eastern Orthodox nor Greek Catholics who are under for that matter use the term purgatory, but their beliefs amount to the same thing.

It comes down to a matter of terminology. I might add that Rome doesn’t require Eastern Catholics to believe in superogatory works, etc.

Besides the whole notion of imputed righteousness is a 16th century innovation.

[rzman21]

The church fathers on the state of purification after death (purgatory). http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/purg.htm

[rzman21]

Do you believe that there is a human Jesus and a Divine Jesus?

Was Mary the mother of the human Jesus only?

[rzman21]

St. Paul says to hold fast to tradition?

Aren’t you relying on traditions of men in the way you interpret scripture?

Lutherans, for example, would say scripture alone teaches that pastors can absolve sins and infant baptism.

The only difference is you refuse to see that you are relying on Baptist tradition when you interpret the scriptures.

The written record needs an interpreter. How do you objectively know that the liberal Protestants aren’t right?

After all, it’s just your word against theirs.

[rzman21]

The Lutheran confessions cite the Deuterocanonicals as scripture paradoxically.

[CynicalBear]

Well, let’s see what Jesus said to the woman who tried to venerate Mary.

Luke 11:27-28 27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Nay rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

(Greek Menounge: nay surely, nay rather)

[TexConfederate1861]

Since when are Baptists Nestorians? Nestorians believe that Mary gave birth to the MAN Jesus, that he was not born with two natures.

Baptists, though Protestant, believe mainstream.

[TexConfederate1861]

"And in the sixth month, the Angel Gabriel was sent from god into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth. To a Virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph of the house of David; and the Virgin's name was Mary. And the Angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women. abriel and Elizabeth's words are also commonly recognized from the Latin Vulgate: Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus. which is commonly translated as Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. It is worth noting that gratia plena, full of grace, or highly favored, is a translation, rather than a transliteration of the original Greek. That is, gratia plena or full of grace in Greek would be pleres charitos (πλήρης χάριτος), whereas St. Luke chooses to use kecharitomene (κεχαριτωμένη). Scholar Rene Laurentin points out that both theologically and philologically, kecharitomene indicates "a transformation of the subject." (Laurentin 1986, pp. 18-19) It is then natural to ask, in what sense was Mary transformed? Building on Laurentin's work, apologist Karl Keating indicates that in Greek, the word kecharitomene indicates a perfection of grace. A perfection in the original Greek context, he continues, must be perfect not only intensively, but extensively over time as well. (Keating 1988, p. 269) Thus, when Gabriel greeted Mary as kecharitomene, or full of grace, he was greeting and recognizing her as being a perfectly transformed subject, perfectly transformed by grace both intensively in the moment, as well as extensively from the moment of her conception. This understanding of kecharitomene is also why many of the early Church Fathers refer to Mary as immaculata, i.e. stainless or without sin, thus laying Scriptural groundwork for the Church's understanding of the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

[TexConfederate1861]

That is a great link, but be careful when using Tertullian, or Origen. Both died heretics.

[TexConfederate1861]

Correction: We honor him as Peter’s successor, and Primus Inter Pares, or “first among equals”. This was his title from the early Church.

Not the Vicar of Christ.

[TexConfederate1861]

They are misguided. Pray for them. They reject the Holy Church, yet accept the scripture FROM that Church!

[TexConfederate1861]

We Orthodox believe that all persons who die go to a place of repose. Until the judgement.