Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
The church doesn’t save, the Lord does. He then adds us to His catholic church. Thank God, He’s God.
Oh, well, at least you’re not one of those Galatians, Romans, or Ephesians, may the Lord bless you with wisdom.
It is not clear at all. You just made this up. all in purgatory have stubble
True. That is why they are there.
these are saved despite having had their works burned, not because of them.
That is complete nonsense. Stubble cannot enter heaven; that is why it is burned off.
in 1Cor. 3 all believers would also be awaiting final salvation
The text says "saved" regarding both groups.
It was intentionally written in context so as to define “work” (singular) as that of building the church
The departure form the context of chruch building begind with "But let every man " in verse 10.
If the reward was that of entering Heaven
No, the reward is a reward of greater glory fon the account of their greater virtues on earth. Both kinds enter heaven, but have have different metaphorical crowns.
I am skipping your table, sorry. It may make sense to you, but until you understand these simple points addressed above you are fighting your own imagination.
That is nonsense too; St. Paul taught salvation by Grace alone through both faith and good works (Eph. 2:5-10, Titus 3:5-8, Gal. 5:6), however not salvation by the works of the Jewish or any other law. How many times do I have to explain this simply truth to you?
If we are saved by grace then it is not by works
Grace indeed is not produced by our works.
Because the text is very clear and my interpretation does not contradict any other scripture. You simply want to discuss something else because you cannot refute the fact that 1 Cor. 3 is a close prooftext of the Purgatory. Naturally, I am trying to get you to focus on the text we are discussing.
omitting contradicting ones
I explained all the seeming contradictions to you. If you still have questions, please point out where there is a contradiction. It should not take a dissertation to point it out.
He does what? Both before the “but let every man” comment and after he is still referencing the building of the church by “God’s husbandry” which would be the pastors and teachers he’s talking to.
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
There is no way a logical reader would infer anything else but that he is still talking about the church leadership.
SOME dispensationalists? What does dispensationalism have to do with this? ANyone with a Bible and a brain can see the handwriting on the wall, Judith Anne. The RCC has some real problems in the future. The near future. But tra-la-la, life goes on, and the Eucharist is always waiting to satisfy the flesh. How about showing me an untruth that you have “uncovered”? Just one.
Why not just “Rome,” as Augustine is reputed to call it at lest once? If Roman Catholic church, or Roman Church is wrong then why does the Vatican sometimes use it, especially, like us, in differentiating btwn itself and other Catholic churches.
It just hit me that that’s like a man already on a boat thanking the guy they just rescued from the water for his company.
Hey! You’re welcome! So am I! What a deal!
It would be wonderful to be able to research the RCC FACTS. However, the RCC’s “FACTS” are FLUID. They don’t exist in an unerring, unchanging, eternal way. The RCC “facts” consist of teaching the “faithful” to be endlessly fascinated by ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Good work when you can get it, I guess. In this life anyway. Worthless when measured against God’s Book of FACTS. So continue to tell me to research the RCC facts for more information before I give my opinion on the subject. I will be more likely to shoot a jackelope than come away with a solid RCC “fact.”
Here’s a good site that gives plenty of scripture to counter the concept of purgatory.
http://www.biblelight.net/purgatory-staples-white.htm
Well, the fact that he said “ALL SCRIPTURE” tells me he meant ALL SCRIPTURE.
Now that’s a fact.
However, shooting the messenger does not kill the message. As much as they appear to believe it does. It's a constant barrage of messengers and messages being delivered. They just fire in all directions, hoping to down something. When that fails, there's always the "hail Mary", running to the RM and complaining about an "i" that wasn't dotted. Whatever it takes to change the subject and the focus.
As an aside to your post, you may be interested to know that today is St. Jude Day for the RCC. The patron saint of desperate, lost causes..
I'm curious. If someone had used as their source material He Who Cannot Be Named, and if a poster recognized the source and responded making note of that fact, wouldn't it be in their interest of the party who used a tainted source to pretend to be the victim of an elaborate conspiracy? Wouldn't it be rather important for them to keep anyone from actually looking at the topic selection and comments they may have based on material from the same tainted source?
I've actually never heard that "legitimate topic" brought up by anyone who didn't pick it up from the slander comics because pursuing it is so patently absurd that people will only do so when they will do almost anything to keep the truth about Catholicism from being heard without their lies and propaganda being heard at the same time. About two months ago, I listened to a speaker who went over five topics that actually originated with the Unmentionable Creator of Slanderous Comics. I don't know how long they've rattled around and been repeated, so I just figured it was coincidence and all, but when someone has to weave a conspiracy theory to distract attention away from a possible source, well, some folks just might start to think no coincidence is involved.
have a nice day
Sorry, the nonsense is all yours. NO WHERE does Paul teach salvation is by faith AND good works. Your verses notwithstanding. In fact, let's look at them:
Ephesians 2:4-10
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Did you see anywhere in there where Paul says we are saved by faith and works? NO. Because it is by faith and NOT of ourselves. The good works God has prepared for us to do are part of his plan for our lives - but it is by grace THROUGH faith that we are saved. Stop contradicting Paul.
Titus 3:4-8 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.
Doing what is good is "excellent and profitable", no argument, but NOT for salvation, is it?
Galatians 5:4-6 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Can't be justified by the law - being good little girls and boys. In fact if you think you are, you have fallen away from grace.
You ask, "How many times do I have to explain this simple truth to you?", that references to the "law" only means the Jewish law. Well, if that's true - which it isn't because Paul wasn't speaking to just Jewish believers - what about the very verse you gave that is in my tagline, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done"? If we aren't saved by keeping the law, and it's not by our own works of righteousness, then what kind of "good works" are you insisting Paul taught granted salvation? HE DIDN'T. Remember when I suggested you read Galatians? Well here's chapter 3:
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
>>>>>>SOME dispensationalists? What does dispensationalism have to do with this? ANyone with a Bible and a brain can see the handwriting on the wall, Judith Anne. The RCC has some real problems in the future. The near future. But tra-la-la, life goes on, and the Eucharist is always waiting to satisfy the flesh. How about showing me an untruth that you have “uncovered”? Just one.
<<<<<<<I’m not bothering with anyone who uses a source like Dave Hunt and a book like “A woman rides the beast.” That stuff is linked to a forbidden source. amd it’s hard to believe you don’t know that.
Why don’t you submit the source and its link to the comibook publisher to the Religion Mod. amd ask him/her thequestion?
Nobody is afraid of that stuff, it’s hate-mongering according to the RM, and is not allowed on FR. Surely that’s not a mystery to you.
>It is clear that if this was purgatory then all would need to have the dross of venial sins burned off<
It is not clear at all. You just made this up.
Read on
>all in purgatory have stubble<
True. That is why they are there.
You just affirmed that all in purgatory have stubble, and that is why they are there, but deny that it is clear that all in purgatory would need to have the dross of venial sins burned off, which is contrary to your statement i was responding to, that one class survives the fire unscathed, thus having nothing that needed to be burned off.
>these are saved despite having had their works burned, not because of them. <
That is complete nonsense. Stubble cannot enter heaven; that is why it is burned off.
It is nonsense according to your purgatorial presupposition which you force the text to support, and thus you have one class gaining reward for not losing works, which you affirm, while another suffers loss of that which should have remained, but are saved despite (yet, even so, nevertheless) this, not because of it.
>in 1Cor. 3 all believers would also be awaiting final salvation<
The text says "saved" regarding both groups.
That is what i affirmed; the issue is upon what basis, which is not purgatorial cleaning which some would not need if they passed through unscathed, and those who did would be rewarded with gain because they lost what the first class retained, rather than being saved despite of it.
>It was intentionally written in context so as to define “work” (singular) as that of building the church<
The departure form the context of chruch building begind with "But let every man " in verse 10.
That is more wresting, as there is no departure, but it continues if you read on, establishing the foundation in v. 11,. and then “Now if any man build upon this foundation”..”every man's work shall be made manifest.” (vs. 11,12)
>If the reward was that of entering Heaven<
No, the reward is a reward of greater glory fon the account of their greater virtues on earth. Both kinds enter heaven, but have have different metaphorical crowns.
I was arguing against the premise that the fire was in order to purify those in purgatory from the stubble you say they have, and thus the joy would be that of entering Heaven due to their perfection, but as the first class have nothing that need to be torched and lost, it is not purgatory, while again, the contrast between these and the class that did suffer loss shows that being saved is despite the loss of fruit which should have remained. And which suffering, which i believe can indeed be grievous, awaits the day of Christ and resurrection.
I am skipping your table, sorry. It may make sense to you, but until you understand these simple points addressed above you are fighting your own imagination.
Annalex, there is more evidence than that you have skipped, and i will simply submit this all to the reader as to who has the comprehension problem and is defending their own imagination, and that of its source.
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