Posted on 09/02/2011 9:07:47 AM PDT by marshmallow
Are you suggesting I did not ponder, have not, pondered the question? On what basis?
So when we keep the Law imperfectly, we haven't sinned? That means that I don't have to ask forgiveness then, for not keeping the Law.
Which parts don't I have to keep perfectly?
What was the point of Jesus coming to earth to FULFILL the Law then? Would that not imply that He didn't necessarily have kept it perfectly and still be sinless.
Your whole contention makes no sense.
James 2:10-11 10For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
That a thing is not imagined or conceived is not proof of its non-existence or impossibility.
Consider: someone invincibly ignorant could be without sin yet not as effective a moral agent as one with more knowledge.
In Mary’s case the explanation might go like this:
Only a man could perfectly fulfill the sacrificial law. A woman, no matter how virtuous could be neither priest nor holocaust.
That defect of qualification would not compromise the perfection of her obedience or sinlessness.
Look for the Tertium Quid. It’s not always there, but there’s one often enough.
Pauline Mysticism sang lead in the ‘60’s Motown girl group Pauline and the Gentilettes.
You never heard of her? My my!
(I’ll attempt a serious answer later.)
LOL!
We Christians have been 'purged' already...
Periodically Paul hits one WAY over the center field wall.
Today the friar who will join the team in November preached at the 9:00 and 11:30 Masses. He said “It’s not that God loves us because we’re good; we’re good because God loves us.”
Where my probing now is in thinking about our will “in” Jesus. And I think the translation of verse 5 is scandalous. I think the older translations preserve the mystery better, while this one amounts to saying, “Think like Jesus,” which strikes me as shallow, as explaining away.
But, other than that ... Good eats.
That was beautiful and I read every word.
Grace is not deserved - I agree -
Yet the premise is still there — we must cooperate with Christ for our salvation.
Are you serious?
Every saint has a following. Even the “lesser” saints.
Do you honestly think that if Mary hadn’t been assumed that she wouldn’t have people there?? (at the site)
God the Father brought her up so she would not have to endure the people;
Do we also agree that IF there is cooperation, it must be enabled and sustained by God?
If so, then what remains, I think, is what part, if any, of the cooperation can be said to be “ours”?
Psalm 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Psalm 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.
Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Very MUCH a need to memorize!
The verse you referenced is NOT addressing the Salvation gift we have already been given.. of eternal life thru Christ....as we are sealed by His Spirit and fully and completely His as believers. ....
.....Rather,... Paul was addressing the Phillipian believers 'as a whole' for they had been bickering and arguing publicly.... his direction was to avoid giving in to the temptations of sinning, ....."Be careful in your corporate witness in Philippi. All of you work out before the whole town the being delivered or preserved or rescued each day from the sin of backbiting," (Phil. 2:13).
Philippians 2:12 cannot be a command to an individual church member telling him that he must work to escape hell. ....The reasons why?
..... In Verse 13 the word "beloved" is plural
.....the verb "have obeyed" is plural
... the verb "work out" is also in the plural
..... and the word "own" is plural.....
Thus, Paul is not giving a command to an individual, but is giving a command, a corporate command, to all the Philippian Christians ......He is commanding them 'as a group 'to do something -- watch closely their public behavior as a group.
How are the Philippians to do this?...
Verse 13:.... "For it is God who worketh in you" -- once again "you" is plural, ....referring to the entire group..... Since Christ has worked out the salvation from hell,... Christians need to work together to give as good a witness as possible to a lost world.
(Exerts from the Watchman)
Okay, I’ll try. But this is just me. I’m not speaking for anyone.
To me, the cheap sense of “mysticism” is about what amounts to magic. If you know the secret words or can assemble the arcane ingredients and so forth, then weird stuff happens.
As far as I’m concerned looking in the mirror is all the weird I need.
What I yearn for is to be good and to know, to know intimately, the Truth. That sort of thing is what I would call “real” mysticism is about.
That yearning is focussed in my relationship with Jesus.
Both in the broader sense and in the Christian sense, these yearnings imply something unattainable by the “self” of which I am more or less aware all the time. Some kind of loss of self, some transformation, some new self is required.
And I find that sort of language all over Paul. “Now I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me,” would be a good example. “Therefore you must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God,” can be seen maybe as an example. I’m sure you can think of more.
It’s not just a theological presentation. It’s a life transformation and a change in the way we look at things.
And God makes the first moves, and all the moves are first. But the transformation, or some part of it takes place so deeply within us that we are scarcely aware. All I was aware of was deep amazement the day I realized that all that Bible stuff about forgiveness and love and putting away sins actually pertained to MOI! ->I<-was the sinner (I knew that) who was forgiven!
But death? Resurrection? Except as metaphor, I had no inkling. But now, 40 years later I can see not only how God led me to that day, but also somehow that the Holy Spirit has been burning the dead me away.
Sometimes it’s dreadful, almost bad enough to qualify as a hint of the cross. Other times, like the other night, it is all, “Could we just stop and bask in this gratitude for the rest of history?”
And it’s really not me. I still have plenty to confess “to you, my brothers and sisters.”
So if I stand back and think about it, I think that in the Gospel, in Jesus with the Holy Spirit we find the fulfillment of the “theophany” or “mystical union” (theosis, “being full of God”, the Orthodox call it) that all “mystics” long for.
It’s not the “cookbook” mysticism of “repeat the mantra,” though I sometimes find myself repeating the Holy Name. It is a slow change that seems to lead, with fits and starts, with long darknesses and sudden flashes of light, to death and resurrection not only as something in the past but as a fact of everyday life — His death and resurrection in which I am somehow involved.
And, I think if one, experiencing this, goes back to Paul, one finds him talking about it everywhere, and especially in that phrase “in Christ.”
I hope that wasn’t entirely unclear.
>> “Okay, I’ll try. But this is just me. I’m not speaking for anyone.
To me, the cheap sense of “mysticism” is about what amounts to magic. If you know the secret words or can assemble the arcane ingredients and so forth, then weird stuff happens.
As far as I’m concerned looking in the mirror is all the weird I need.
What I yearn for is to be good and to know, to know intimately, the Truth. That sort of thing is what I would call “real” mysticism is about.” <<
.
Mad Dawg, we know that you’re for real.
What we wonder is how you are able to tolerate all the pagan mysticism in the RCC.
I’m not so sure they don’t have peace of mind CB. There is a “false” peace which can give an individual a sense all is well....until the light of the scriptures is shed across it..... But then many resist the scripture and hold tightly to their traditions...it’s hard to let go of the sod when one is hanging off a cliff while the rescuer has a hold of their other hand telling them they have to let go and ‘trust’ Him and Him alone.
Some find a great deal of peace for the knowledge they have of their church and it’s system of operating. They know how it works and have found a certain level of contentment in their knowledge....and seemingly ‘Comfort in the familiar’ says it best. And the older one gets the least apt they are to risk change from that which is familiar...it “works” for them...literally.
Thank you for the post. All glory to God for sure! It pains me so to see people not taking advantage of what Christ paid such a large price for.
I am always intrigued when a Catholic spouts Mormon doctrine.
As metmom said, it is a gift, if works were required then it is no longer a gift. If works are needed than grace is no longer grace. Salvation (entrance into Heaven) is by faith. Belief is not a ‘free ride’, but all we have to do is believe. Not ‘do our part’. That is unbiblical.
Since you bragged earlier about not needing to memorize scripture, let me help you out here...Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Or do you not accept the teaching of St. Paul?
I'll get back with you...thanks, smvoice
A false sense of security. I understand the concept. Carnally it is virtually impossible to understand the love of God and His gift. I sometime tend to forget that if God doesn’t call someone they will not hear just as the men with Saul (later Paul) didn’t hear Christ.
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