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Skeletons in the Catholic Church’s Closet [review of Showtime's "The Borgias"]
Beliefnet ^ | April 8, 2011 | CATHLEEN FALSANI

Posted on 04/27/2011 8:10:30 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

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To: Natural Law; metmom; RnMomof7
Both metmom and RnMomof7 are active on pro-life threads; however, there are others who I have seldom if ever seen on any threads where they weren't spewing anti-Catholic bigotry.
41 posted on 04/27/2011 11:20:25 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Dr. Scarpetta

While the Showtime production may be interesting I usually don’t watch the historical novel type of story. Just a personal preference.

I’ve read more than a bit about the time and find all the excusing and apologies as fascinating as the story its self.

Thanks for the link!


42 posted on 04/27/2011 11:21:42 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: vladimir998

Give me your hand and I’ll take you through it s l o w l y and c a r e f u l l y.


43 posted on 04/27/2011 11:26:08 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: metmom
Blatant, pre-meditated sin of the worst kind and it's a non-issue for Catholics.

??? "non-issue" ???

Really?

Every Catholic church historian I know of thinks that Alexander VI was a scumbag, and that his scandalous & reprehensible behavior was one of the waystations on the path to the reformation.

That's not a "non-issue," sorry, and you lose credibility by saying stuff like that.

44 posted on 04/27/2011 11:28:50 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Carpe Cerevisi

This is an excerpt from the account of the death of Pope Alexander VI.

“On Friday, the 18th, between nine and ten o’clock he confessed to the Bishop Gamboa of Carignola, who then read mass to him. After his communion he gave the Eucharist to the Pope who was sitting in bed. Then he ended the mass at which were present five cardinals, Serra, Juan and Francesco Borgia, Casanova and Loris. The Pope told them that he felt very bad. At the hour of vespers after Gamboa had given him extreme unction, he died.”

Christian teaching is clear when a man repents and confesses his sins those sins are lifted from him and forgiven. Whether it is at the last minute or whether it is a daily the result is the same. Jesus forgives those sins. Yes according to Catholic teaching the soul will spend time in purgatory before entering heaven. Yet even in Protestant teaching there is no suggestion that sincere repentence and confession does not lift the burden of sin from the soul. That Jesus forgiveness of sin is ever incomplete and the person still hazards hell (I mean confession of the dying where there is no chance to commit more sins).

So chew on this. According to historical fact Pope Alexander confessed his sins. I accept that he was sincere and that he received forgiveness. That means this base, corrupt, sinful, scandalous man is now with Christ in Glory. (I’ll assume his time in Purgatory is finished.) He shares in the unending hymn of praise and on the last day will share in the ressurection of the dead.

Christ loves this sinner and forgave him out of that love. Did Alexander deserve forgiveness? When measured against the price Christ paid for those sins we must answer no. But when measured against the love Christ has for us we realize deserve does not enter into this equation.

I am a sinner. Just because by the rules of men my sins are less scandalous does not mean I can forget the price paid for them. Our default judgment without the merits of Christ is hell.

Christ is risen and He trampled death. Only by this are we given hope of heaven. His mercy and His love and His grace are not mine to boast of but to be humbly grateful for.

So wax all superior that Catholics have this great sinner in their closet (more like a greenhouse). Me I’ll just be humbled that grace is not held back from even the most base sinner should he approach God with a contrite heart.


45 posted on 04/27/2011 11:32:01 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: metmom

VERY WELL PUT.

EXCELLENT POINTS.

THX.


46 posted on 04/27/2011 11:42:32 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom

Given that the tolerance and protection of the abusive priests was nation wide and typical of the majority of the bishops one can only suppose the bishops acted upon established and understandably unwritten Church policy.


47 posted on 04/27/2011 11:43:59 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: vladimir998

In contrast to Papist Bigots?


48 posted on 04/27/2011 11:51:52 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom; wagglebee
" Then you need to get off the RF more often and onto wagglebee's pro-life, moral absolutes threads more often, which BTW, I don't ever recall seeing you on."

I am on the ping list an I read nearly every one. I rarely comment because I don't see lies about the Church go unchallenged.

It is interesting to note who self identifies as an anti-Catholic.

49 posted on 04/27/2011 11:51:52 AM PDT by Natural Law
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To: lastchance

Well and Biblically put, I think.

Agreed.


50 posted on 04/27/2011 11:56:23 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: GOP_Party_Animal

Not all Lutherans.

The LCMS and others don’t follow the slide the ELCA has.


51 posted on 04/27/2011 12:09:38 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Natural Law; count-your-change; the_conscience; metmom
Post #24, NL: ....can anyone explain the complete absence of evidence in their posting histories of any condemnation of abortion?

Post #30, AM: I don't find you having posted even a single thread on the subject of abortion in your entire history on FR. For the record, here's a sampling of mine.

Post #37, NL: ....I don't need to when my work and that of the Church is boldly, and too often completely alone in defense of Life. You posted some threads on abortion. BFD (Big Fat Deal)

I'm so sorry I've disappointed you yet again. Am I going to have to stand before you at the Last Judgment, like count-your-change has to?

Moving the goalposts

52 posted on 04/27/2011 12:14:37 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: Alex Murphy; RitaOK; Natural Law; Carpe Cerevisi; the_conscience; count-your-change
Of course you do!

You fell away from the True Church and we pray for your swift reconciliation and return to the flock of the Faithful.

More importantly, we know that the True Church has a place in your heart and your soul.

We welcome your inevitable return to the Holy Church.

53 posted on 04/27/2011 12:19:20 PM PDT by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: starlifter
Of course you do! You fell away from the True Church and we pray for your swift reconciliation and return to the flock of the Faithful. More importantly, we know that the True Church has a place in your heart and your soul. We welcome your inevitable return to the Holy Church.

When did my "falling away" happen? What parish(es) did I attend beforehand? And if I "come back", will I be required to resign my commission in the God Squad?

54 posted on 04/27/2011 12:44:41 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: Campion; metmom
That's not a "non-issue," sorry, and you lose credibility by saying stuff like that.

I don't think you can lose something that has already been lost.

55 posted on 04/27/2011 1:09:06 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Alex Murphy
I get to live rent-free inside the heads of so many Catholics.

I think you overestimate yourself.

I myself, and I'd bet that a few others here feel this way, just think of the usual suspects the same way I think of DU posters. In other words, just sad strange people to be pitied.

56 posted on 04/27/2011 1:15:46 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Alex Murphy
” like count-your-change has to?”

For a certainty when called to judgment I won't pull out a list of all the “good” things I've done, marching in demonstrations, signing petitions and claiming I fought “the good fight” all alone.
Nor will I have to explain why I called the perverted “Brother” and “Father” as though part of them.

57 posted on 04/27/2011 1:44:30 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Campion
The major difference between Alex VI and other Renaissance Popes was that he was heterosexual
58 posted on 04/27/2011 1:45:13 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.- H. L. Mencken)
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To: Oztrich Boy
The major difference between Alex VI and other Renaissance Popes was that he was heterosexual

Do you have any proof for your claim that all of the Renaissance popes were homosexual?
59 posted on 04/27/2011 1:53:42 PM PDT by Carpe Cerevisi
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To: WPaCon
Me: I get to live rent-free inside the heads of so many Catholics.

You: I think you overestimate yourself.

I stand corrected. While I still live inside of their heads, some have made attempts at extorting rent.

60 posted on 04/27/2011 1:55:00 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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