Posted on 02/10/2011 7:57:12 AM PST by Christian Engineer Mass
So I’m saying that Scripture is not a deity and should not be worshipped. That doesn’t mean that scripture was not inspired by God. Why do you assume that just because scripture is not itself divine that is not sufficient?
“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.”
Mary said this, Christ was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Christ would go on to redeem mankind. It is because she said this, and obeyed, that Christ was born and brought into this world, to suffer and die on the cross.
But it isn’t sufficient. Not anymore.
How can you take books out of something that was already sufficient, and then proclaim it to still be sufficient.
>>Your car is physical.
Our souls are spiritual.
The Dead Saints can, indeed, help us with one but not the other.<<
You miss the point. Once you are bringing in the spiritual, there is only one intercessor needed: Jesus Himself. I will ask other LIVING people (people still occupying their earthly flesh and living in this created time/space continuum) because the Bible and Jesus clearly teaches it. But once I attempt to communicate directly to the spiritual realm, my ONE and only one intercessor is Jesus. And to suggest that I would need to “pray” to someone else first is, basically, limiting “his” power.
There is not one single place in the Bible where Jesus or his apostles or anyone else who was a follower of Jesus wrote in the Bible, where we are instructed to communicate with someone who no longer occupies their earthly flesh. Quite the contrary, in fact. Once our words are heaven bound, they are to Jesus Himself. In all sincerity, if you can direct me to any scripture instructing me otherwise, I’d be interested in seeing it.
It doesn't say she is to be honored any more than any other obedient person in the Bible.
In fact, there are 2 instances where Mary fell short. Christ pointed out her shortcoming in understanding what He was doing in His Father's House when she returned to get Him.
Also, Mary was part of the family gathering that thought Jesus was out of His mind in Mark Ch. 3.
Can you explain why the footnotes that this "former nun" provides link not to the actual Papal documents but to a book written by Donald G. Bloesch?
After all she claimed:
Therefore my primary sources about Catholic doctrines and history come from the Catholic Church.
Can you explain this contradiction?
Well let’s take your conclusion to the natural consequence.
Mary was just a woman, so we’d expect to hear about Elizabeth as often as we do Mary.
I’ve yet to hear a protestant (and I was a protestant), ever preach a sermon on Mary, despite her prominence in Luke 1. Why is this? Why is she second fiddle to Mary?
By your logic....if protestants say the Bible is infallible they are worshipping the Bible?
So does that mean Catholics worship the Pope since you consider him infallible?
Fair enough....can you please link to the papal documents so all can see what the popes actually said?
Do the saints in heaven pray?
Only if one is in Christ one can mediate; for Christ is the only one able.
Christ also intercedes for us (Rom 8:34) as does the Holy Spirit.
Mr “tartly” asks an odd question; does he think Mary was a Prophet? Is what she says “prophesy”?
On the other hand, don’t we all believe that Mary was blessed to be the mother of Jesus? I don’t “bless” her, or thing she is “bles-sed”, as in “the “bless-ed virgin Mary”, but it certainly was a blessing for her to be privileged to be the mother of Jesus.
I’m reminded of the saying “it will be a blessing and a curse” — the word “blessing” not meaning that some beatification or elevation takes place, just that something is of benefit or encouragement to you.
So, it is easy for a Protestant to say that Mary was right in her statement of how blessed she was to have been given this privilege, without thinking we should in any way include Mary in our worship of God.
There is but one Mediator. There is One Name.
Apparently your bible lacks the following passages.
“Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28-36”
I suggest you get a new bible.
Well what does the doctrine of infalliability teach?
Protestants seem to believe that infalliability means that one is God. So when you believe that your own personal interpretation of scripture is inerrant, does this mean that you are God?
>>You do grasp the meaning of ‘full of grace?’<<
Yes. Do grasp the meaning of “grace”?
I think the challenge so many of us are having here is that we are getting into the “meat” of scripture and carefully attempting to parse words. And words are just symbols. For example, the word “red” means diiferent things to different people. A person that has to wash fire engines thinks of red differently than a person who works in an operating room. Not only do they see different shades of the color as their primary paradigm, but also there are subtle perceptual differences because of what the color actually means: One is a protective and attractive shiny coating of a vehicle, while the other is the live giving fluid in most animals, and seeing it exposed brings different emotions.
It is a rather lame example, but good enough for what I am trying to say here. And it is this: The meaning we choose to give what appears to be fairly straightforward scripture is often based on our general perception of God. Sometimes that perception is so warped that we can warp scripture pretty effectively just to support deeper warped views of God. A good example would be Homosexual pastors saying that when the bible says it is wrong for men to lust after men, that what the bible really means is it is wrong for HETEROSEXUAL men to lust after other men. Yeah, it sounds incredibly deluded.
Which is how the “ever virgin Mary” sounds to me. But for some, she HAS TO BE ever-virgin or a lot of their deeper beliefs collapse, as with the homosexual example.
A lot of protestants have the same problem with pre-tribulation rapture. I used to be one of them until I read the bible with an open mind. However, I see an open mind as described by G. K. Chesterton:
“The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.”
Another straw-man arguement on your part. Protestants don’t think themselves as God. They believe the Bible is inerrant and that the Holy Spirit guides and teaches them into correct understanding.
Just because people arrive at different conclusions about certain verses doesn’t mean the scriptures are insufficient. Instead,the techniques used by the reader are insufficient.
“Which is how the “ever virgin Mary” sounds to me. But for some, she HAS TO BE ever-virgin or a lot of their deeper beliefs collapse, as with the homosexual example.”
Is it significant to you that the only Church which teaches that contraception is wrong AND homosexuality is wrong, also teaches that Mary was perpetually virgin?
“And it wasn’t Mary worshiping. My belief is that we Catholics pray to the saints (and Mary) for intercession before the Lord.”
And both are not necessary. Christ say’s speak to Him, for he is the way. Not Mary, Not Peter etc..... Trust what the Lord says not what the Pope says
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