Posted on 02/07/2011 8:45:48 AM PST by verdugo
Edit, that should read, (immaculate conception and infalliability) were both proclaimed as infalliabile at Vatican I, IC, not Petrine primacy.
The Orthodox Eastern church's also teaches that:
1) the souls of the just will not attain complete happiness till the end of the world, when they will be joined to their bodies; and
2)that the souls of the wicked will not suffer complete torture in hell until that last day. These are heresies against the doctrines of the Church.
Besides these dogmas, there are still many other doctrinal points, such as:
3)the monarchical structure of the Catholic Church,
4)the role of the Sovereign Pontiff in this monarchy that it rejects,
6)Limbo,
7)purgatory,
8)indissolubility of marriage (can get married three times in the church while all the original spouses are still alive)
to name a few!!!!
Well the monarchial structure, is all wrapped in with Petrine authority. So that’s all wrapped in together.
Where’s the source for permitting remarriage? I have heard this allegation previously, but not from the Orthodox.
The eschatalogical issue is not something I’ve heard previously. Where do they say this?
"The church gives one marriage, but will make the exception and tolerate up to a third marriage for any Orthodox Christian."
You can Google further yourself, "Indissolubility of marriage Eastern Orthodox 3rd marriage", or something along those lines.
Ver-””Again, this dose not say anything about those outside of the Church being saved where they are. says: “For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which”. Is accesible, does not mean that they can be saved outside of the Church. “”
If you ever bothered to read what I have posted and drop your bloated ego you would have understood that I NEVER said SALVATION was outside the Church and that the Invincibly Ignorant who follow the law of love can be saved by God’s grace mystically connecting them to the Church like what Lumen Gentium and Dominius Iesus say.
st.fassisi responded: If you ever bothered to read what I have posted and drop your bloated ego you would have understood that I NEVER said SALVATION was outside the Church and that the Invincibly Ignorant who follow the law of love can be saved by God’s grace mystically connecting them to the Church like what Lumen Gentium and Dominius Iesus say.
I understood you perfectly, but you misunderstood what I wrote above. Let me make it clearer for you:
That fallible document does not say anything about those outside of the Church being saved where they are. It says: “For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church" (that means they are outside of the Church), “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which”. That means that the grace is accessible outside of the Church, that's all it means. That grace is accessible, does not mean that they are saved where they are, they have to listen to that grace and follow through and do what that grace is telling them to do, formally enter the Catholic Church. If they don't follow through before they die, then they are damned, as non-Catholics.
re: that the Invincibly Ignorant who follow the law of love can be saved by God’s grace mystically connecting them to the Church like what Lumen Gentium and Dominius Iesus say.
There is no such thing as a "mystical connecting to the Church", there is only formally in the Church or outside of the Church, that was dogmatically defined by Pius XII (see article of this thread). Now, that presents an obstacle for this theological construct, the theory called "invincible ignorant"(IG), as the IG are outside of the Church. Additionally, to believe in IG, one has to believe that God's Grace, which can turn stones into sons of Abraham, can't penetrate those thick skulls. That God predestined some people to be inaccessible to his Grace.
Moreover, are you prepared to tell the non-Catholics on FR that they can be saved because they are invisible ignorant, so ignorant that even God's Grace can't penetrate their thick skulls? These incongruent disjointed theological constructs, these mental gymnastics of excuses are exactly what St. Augustine was referring to vortex of confusion: St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)
More:
St. Augustine again teaches that the predestined, the elect, will not be permitted by God to die and go to judgment without having received the sacramental baptism by water.
St. Augustine: “Not one of the elect and predestined perishes, regardless of his age at death. Never be it said that a man predestined to life would be permitted to end his life without the sacrament of the Mediator. Because, of these men, Our Lord says: ‘This is the will of the Father, that I should lose nothing of what he has given me.’” (Against Julian 5, 4)
St. Augustine: “As, therefore, that one man [Christ] was predestinated to be our Head, so we being many are predestinated to be His members. Here let human merits which have perished through Adam keep silence, and let that grace of God reign which reigns through Jesus Christ our Lord, the only Son of God, the one Lord. Let whoever can find in our Head the merits which preceded that peculiar generation, seek in us His members for those merits which preceded our manifold regeneration. For that generation was not recompensed to Christ, but given; that He should be born, namely, of the Spirit and the Virgin, separate from all entanglement of sin. Thus also our being born again of water and the Spirit is not recompensed to us for any merit, but freely given; and if faith has brought us to the laver of regeneration, we ought not therefore to suppose that we have first given anything, so that the regeneration of salvation should be recompensed to us again; because He made us to believe in Christ, who made for us a Christ on whom we believe. He makes in men the beginning and the completion of the faith in Jesus who made the man Jesus the beginner and finisher of faith; for thus, as you know, He is called in the epistle which is addressed to the Hebrews.” (The Predestination of the Saints, 31)
St. Prosper of Aquitaine, taking up where St. Augustine left of, teaches the same:
St. Prosper of Aquitaine: “For in this respect they are in the same condition as the greatest sinners; regenerated in baptism they are alike in sanctity; take away baptism, and they perish all together. It is a fact then, that grace seeks its adopted sons even among the worse sinners in their very last moments, and that many who looked less wicked are denied this gift. But who could say that these facts escape God’s ruling or that He decrees them without a profound justice? …It is obvious that all who die without baptism are lost.” (The Call of All Nations 1, 17; 2, 24)
“No man attains to eternal life without the sacrament of baptism.” (Answers to the Gauls 9)
Ver-””There is no such thing as a “mystical connecting to the Church”, there is only formally in the Church or outside of the Church, that was dogmatically defined by Pius XII””
Pius XII said nothing about the Invincibly Ignorant,therefore he did not define the dogma regarding them.Lumen Gentium Defined the Invincibly Ignorant which did NOT change Salvation outside the Church since Salvation is still within the Church in a mystical way through the Grace of God.
Our ways are not always His ways,ver.
Like it or not,Lumen Gentium is a dogmatic constitution and rejecting it is being disobedient to Christ and His Church like Feeney was.
Ver-””are you prepared to tell the non-Catholics on FR that they can be saved because they are invisible ignorant””
It’s not up to me to know the minds of others,ver.God knows these things,all I can do is uphold the faith and be obedient and lead by example and pray for them humble themselves to avoid error.
These debates between the same ole protestants don’t seem to change the harsh anti Catholic’s.
I believe there are lurkers out there who benefit from the exchanges and are led to union with the Church.
Telling people who are searching that they are going to hell will cause them to run away,ver.So ,you ought to be careful to not let the little ones who are searching be led away from the faith.
I’m finished posting on this thread. You may have the last word,dear brother
I wish you a Blessed evening!
That Vatican II chose to remain on a purely pastoral level, is a well documented fact. Documented, by none other that the present Pope when – as Cardinal Ratzinger – he addressed the Bishops of Chile:
“The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero. The truth is that this particular Council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of superdogma which takes away the importance of all the rest.”
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ALL NON-CATHOLICS ARE OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH, EVEN THE INVINCIBLE IGNORANT
The invincible ignorant are outside of the Church, there is no "in between mystical church", of invincible ignorant non-Catholics. From the thread article:
"What makes us inside the Church? Three things: Divine and Catholic Faith (explicit in the principal mysteries — the Trinity and the Incarnation — and at least implicit in all other articles), sacramental baptism, and subjection to the Holy Father. These defining elements of Church membership expounded by St. Robert Bellarmine were authoritatively postulated by Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis":
"Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. “For in one spirit” says the Apostle, “were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free.” [I Cor., XII, 13] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. [Cf. Eph., IV, 5] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered – so the Lord commands – as a heathen and a publican. [Cf. Matth., XVIII, 17] It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit". (No. 22)
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