Transubstantiation: From Stumbling Block to Cornerstone

The Catholic Thing ^ | 1/21/11 | Francis J. Beckwith

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Ping to 799

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2661138/posts?page=799#799

[metmom]

umm, that is from Wiki. i posted it to show historians generally agree Jesus primarily spoke Aramaic while He walked the earth.

Wikipedia?

You mean the same wikipedia where just any body can go in and edit anything they want to make it say what they want and can then go and cite it in a debate to *prove* that they're right?

That wikipedia?

[boatbums]

Or some people just like being obnoxious.

[Quix]

still no answer to my six questions!

!!!YOU!!!
ARE COMPLAINING
ABOUT
OTHERS
NOT ANSWERING
YOUR
QUESTIONS?

Oh, right, Vatican AIWSOTARM folks
shattered all their mirrors
as a RELIGIOUS obligation
LONG ago!

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

i keep asking you to show me where the Church teaches Jesus dies in the Mass? that was the charge, you keep posting “trent” statements, but none of the statements teach Jesus dies in the Mass. you say “it’s right there”, ok, show me where! you say you see them clearly, ok, show me where. all i see is a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing!

[count-your-change]

Where is the evidence that Ignatius was personally taught by the apostle John?

[metmom]

I see many Catholics here put allot of weight in what former authors have written or stated as “gospel”, which is another reason for all the confusion amongst themselves about what they determine they will or not believe.

That's the result when you disparage and denigrate Scripture .

They have to have something that sounds impressive to back up their doctrines. Since Scripture doesn't do it, they'll go back as far as they can and try to imply some special knowledge on the part of the writers to give those writings the validity and certainty that only Scripture should be credited with.

[Quix]

RC’S?

Oh, Right.

Isn’t it a RELIGIOUS DUTY OF OBLIGATION or some such?

Or is it merely a Station of

The Stations of The White Hanky?

[metmom]

I have no clue.

You’ll have to ask a Catholic, provided they’ll answer it.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. 330 - 379 A.D.)

To communicate each day and to partake of the holy Body and Blood of Christ is good and beneficial; for He says quite plainly: “He that eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal life.” Who can doubt that to share continually in life is the same thing as having life abundantly? We ourselves communicate four times each week...and on other days if there is a commemoration of any saint. (Letter of Basil to a Patrician Lady Caesaria)

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does this statement sound like Basil retained the spiritual conception of the sacrament?
I have to laugh when the Fathers are tried to be used against the Church.
Augustine did not believe in the change of substance? LOL! He wrote Jesus held His own Body in His hands at the Last Supper.
Whoever wrote this misreprents the Fathers and Church doctrine by its “re-sacrificing Christ” charge.
Nice try.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

GREGORY OF NAZIANZ (c. 330 - 389 A.D.)

The tongue of a priest meditating on the Lord raises the sick. Do, then, the greater thing by celebrating the liturgy, and loose the great mass of my sins when you lay hold of the Sacrifice of the Resurrection. Most Reverend friend, Cease not to pray and plead for me when you draw down the Word by your word, when in an unbloody cutting you cut the Body and Blood of the Lord, using your voice for a sword. (Letter of Gregory to Amphilochius, Bishop of Iconium)

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[one Lord one faith one baptism]

ORIGEN (c. 185 - 254 A.D.)

We give thanks to the Creator of all, and, along with thanksgiving and prayer for the blessings we have received, we also eat the bread presented to us; and this bread BECOMES BY PRAYER A SACRED BODY, which sanctifies those who sincerely partake of it. (Against Celsus 8:33)

You see how the ALTARS are no longer sprinkled with the blood of oxen, but consecrated BY THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST. (Homilies on Josue 2:1)

But if that text (Lev 24:5-9) is taken to refer to the greatness of what is mystically symbolized, then there is a ‘commemoration’ which has an EFFECT OF GREAT PROPITIATORY VALUE. If you apply it to that ‘Bread which came down from heaven and gives life to the world,’ that shewbread which ‘God has offered to us as a means of reconciliation, in virtue of faith, ransoming us with his blood,’ and if you look to that commemoration of which the Lord says, ‘Do this in commemoration of me,’ then you will find that this is the unique commemoration WHICH MAKES GOD PROPITIOUS TO MEN. (Homilies on Leviticus 9)

You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received THE BODY OF THE LORD, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall, and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish....how is it that you think neglecting the word of God a lesser crime than neglecting HIS BODY? (Homilies on Exodus 13:3)

...now, however, in full view, there is the true food, THE FLESH OF THE WORD OF GOD, as He Himself says: “MY FLESH IS TRULY FOOD, AND MY BLOOD IS TRULY DRINK.” (Homilies on Numbers 7:2)

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[RobbyS]

You do know, do you not, that many Protestants were raised in the same narrow way? The Bible as a rule-book? The God you are describing is the Calvinist God, and I might add, the Jansenist God.

The old Puritans used to keep diaries in which they traced their spiritual life in detail, always in fear of discovering that they were not among the Elect. Pretty obviously, you will never taught , to wonder what was the reason behind the rules. Child psychologists tell us that children are all pretty much rule-bound, but as they mature they need to grasp the rule intellectually. Many people never do, What was a child, I thought as a child etc.

But one is pretty much dependent on one's teachers. The Church has a rich intellectual history, but the downside of the old Catholic education was the fossilization of doctrine. That is, the tendency to treat everything as dogma, even that which was not dogma. One reason why the liberals caused such havoc in the Church was that they took eggs and instead of warming them and hatching them to make chickens, they cracked the eggs and made an omelete.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

or it proves some people have no clue what they are talking about, sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

ST. AUGUSTINE (c. 354 - 430 A.D.)

“That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.” (Sermons 227)

“The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, BECOMES CHRIST’S BODY.” (Sermons 234:2)

“What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.” (Sermons 272)

“How this [’And he was carried in his own hands’] should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. FOR CHRIST WAS CARRIED IN HIS OWN HANDS, WHEN, REFERRING TO HIS OWN BODY, HE SAID: ‘THIS IS MY BODY.’ FOR HE CARRIED THAT BODY IN HIS HANDS.” (Psalms 33:1:10)

“Was not Christ IMMOLATED only once in His very Person? In the Sacrament, nevertheless, He is IMMOLATED for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being IMMOLATED.” (Letters 98:9)

“Christ is both the Priest, OFFERING Himself, and Himself the Victim. He willed that the SACRAMENTAL SIGN of this should be the daily Sacrifice of the Church, who, since the Church is His body and He the Head, learns to OFFER herself through Him.” (City of God 10:20)

“By those sacrifices of the Old Law, this one Sacrifice is signified, in which there is a true remission of sins; but not only is no one forbidden to take as food the Blood of this Sacrifice, rather, all who wish to possess life are exhorted to drink thereof.” (Questions on the Heptateuch 3:57)

“Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator is OFFERED for them, or when alms are given in the church.” (Ench Faith, Hope, Love 29:110)

Let the true St AUGUSTINE speak for himself. The man was a Catholic priest, who offered the Sacrifice of the MASS.

[boatbums]

Yes, I think some believe it is a RELIGIOUS DUTY OF OBLIGATION to be obnoxious, obloxious, oblivious and obstentious, to name just a few. ;o)

[metmom]

Thanks for all the links to the heresies of those the Catholic church calls its church fathers.

It’s appalling the deception Satan is capable of putting in men’s minds when they put self before God.

It should be a lesson to us all to keep our eyes on Christ and Scripture alone. Only that way can we avoid falling into the same kinds of errors as they.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

Ignatius of Antioch, Saint (ĭgnā`shəs, ăn`tēŏk), d. c.107, bishop of Antioch and Christian martyr, called Theophorus [Gr.,= God-bearer]. He was probably a convert and a disciple of St. John the Evangelist. On his way to Rome to be martyred by the wild beasts of the amphitheater, he wrote the important letters to the churches in Rome and in Asia Minor, and to St. Polycarp Polycarp, Saint , c.A.D. 70–A.D. 156?, Greek bishop of Smyrna, Father of the Church. He was a disciple of St. John, who appointed him bishop. Thus he linked the apostles and such 2d-century Christian expositors as St. Irenaeus. St. ..... Click the link for more information. . The seven epistles are an invaluable testimony to the beliefs and internal organization of the early Christians. St. Ignatius is the first writer to stress the virgin birth. He firmly denounced Docetism Docetism [Gr.,=to appear], early heretical trend in Christian thought. Docetists claimed that Christ was a mere phantasm who only seemed to live and suffer. A similar tendency to deny Jesus' humanity appeared in the teachings of Simon Magus, Marcion, Gnosticism, and ..... Click the link for more information. and viewed the mystery of the Trinity as an assumed doctrine of faith. The only guarantee against heresy, he taught, is the church united under a bishop. St. Ignatius is the first in Christian literature to use the word Catholic. Feast: Feb. 1. BibliographySee J. A. Kleist, tr., The Epistles of St. Clement of Rome and St. Ignatius of Antioch (1946), V. Corwin, Saint Ignatius and Christianity in Antioch (1960). PER YOUR REQUEST

[Quix]

LOL. So it seems.

[Quix]

This

WAR OF THE CHURCH FATHERS

strikes me as beyond absurd.

The pretense on the part of the Vatican AIWSOTARM as represented on FR is

that the church fathers are all a homogeneous, seamless, 100% unified-in-lock-step with a 100% unified current 2011 Catechism [which is itself a contradictory pile of convoluted diplospeak] group of cloned identical idologues.

. . . when the reality is virtually the opposite.