Posted on 12/31/2010 10:16:57 PM PST by Alex Murphy
Reference bump
Cromwell was a murdering POS who invaded Ireland and killed the priests and burned all the Catholic churches. Banned the Mass on pain of death. With any luck he is still burning in Hell where he belongs.
Thanks for the ping! The movie with Richard Harris is outstanding and I recommend renting or buying it. I do not buy the author’s idea that Cromwell was manic. I think it is just that, the authors dark idea from his own darkside. Someday, when the true living Americans that are left here are pushed far enough with all of the unborn murder and excessive taxation and theft from our companies through business taxes...someday we will be pushed to the point that Cromwell was and we will once again fight to push off the barbarians from our necks! And then there will be 1000 years of real freedom and zero communistic income tax! With a ruler of light and real justice who came down once again , this time as the lion to finish off the evil possessed forces of our enemies.
The death toll at Drogheda was largely English Royalist and Irish Confederate military garrisoned there, about 3,000 men in all. There were civilian deaths due to priests, nuns and laymen taking shelter at Drogheda, which is/was something of a fortification, could even be described as a castle and frequently is described as a castle in modern day Ireland.
This was not at all unusual under the siege warfare methods of that time. It makes Cromwell no more monstrous than any other military figure of the era who had ever mounted a siege of opposing forces garrisoned in a fortification.
That is not what the Conservapedia says. Carles I was an Anglican in good standing. The events you are referring to are known as the Bishops Wars in which the central issue had to do with the authority and powers of the crown. Charles I sought to impose an episcopalian system of church government for Scotland (with bishops), and the Scottish Puritans desired a presbyterian system of governance (without bishops).
The charges that Charles I was "too close to the Catholics" was a charge against his royalist activities. The crowned heads of Europe were largely Catholic and Charles sought to more closely identify with them. Charles married a Catholic (Henrietta Maria of France whom he had never actually met) over the objections of parliament giving ammunition to his political opponents. He further fueled this claim failed to militarily intervene to protect the French Huguenots, who were themselves were the political equivalent of the English anti-Royalists.
Indeed - three of the “Regicides” of Charles I took refuge in RI and Conn around New Haven. Roger Williams (the true founder of religious freedom in America) was related to Cromwell thru his wife Mary Bernard.
“Cromwell was one of the predecessors of our American founding fathers for religious freedom”
I think it’s a point worth increased study. Three of the Regicides that signed Charles I’s death warrant ended up in RI and CT - as did many other Cromwell followers. Many of these same families started the American Revolution.
Roger Williams (the founder of religious freedom in America) was loosely related to Cromwell thru his wife Mary Bernard Williams.
But Cromwell was unrepentant: as he famously wrote in 1643, ‘I had rather have a plain russet-coated captain that knows what he fights for and loves what he knows, than that which you call a gentleman and is nothing else.’
His officers were middle-class yeomen, not simpering aristocrats.
My kind of guy!
Thanks Alex, well worth the read at the link.
John Hawkins, Francis Drake. Without them there would have been no Churchill.
And then:
His body was hanged in chains at Tyburn. Finally, his disinterred body was thrown into a pit,
while his severed head was displayed on a pole outside Westminster Hall until 1685.
Ironically the Cromwell vault was then used as a burial place for Charles II’s
illegitimate descendants. Afterwards the head changed hands several times,
including the sale in 1814 to a man named Josiah Henry Wilkinson, before
eventually being buried in the grounds of Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge, in 1960.
This is the kind of stuff that can make a boy interested in history!
“That is not what the Conservapedia says.”
My quote was a direct lift. It is exactly what Conservapedia says.
I am not sure why Conservapedia is a “ROFL.”
I am no expert on English history or Cromwell. I do know that Cromwell was a duly sanctioned leader of the troops, authorized by Parliament to basically lead their side in a civil war. Which he is credited with winning. I am sure the losing side was quite bitter about it. There were probably atrocities on both sides. How much any individual leader is responsible for those atrocities is a matter of debate.
I repeat, I do not defend war crimes by any party. I would just like to point out that in war, innocent people are killed. That is not ok with me. It is just the way it is. To blame Cromwell exclusively for that fact is not reasonable. Again, he did not start this war. He just finished it.
No it wasn't. The following is the "direct lift" from the Conservapedia. (Nowhere does it say he was imposing Catholicism on the Scottish Puritans as you claimed):
Charles I (19 November 1600 – 30 January 1649) was King of England, King of Scotland and King of Ireland from 27 March 1625 until his execution.
Charles struggled for power with the Parliament of England. He firmly believed in the Divine Right of Kings, and many in England feared that he was attempting to gain absolute power.
Religious conflicts were a notable feature of Charles' reign. He married a Catholic princess, Henrietta Maria of France, over the objections of Parliament and public opinion. Many of Charles' subjects felt that he brought the Church of England too close to Roman Catholicism. Charles' later attempts to force religious reforms upon Scotland led to the Bishops' Wars that weakened England's government and led to his downfall.
His last years were marked by the English Civil War, in which he was opposed by the forces of Parliament and by Puritans, who were hostile to his religious policies and Catholic sympathy. Charles was defeated in the first Civil War (1642 - 1645), after which Parliament expected him to accept demands for a constitutional monarchy. He instead remained defiant by attempting to forge an alliance with Scotland and escaping to the Isle of Man. This provoked a second Civil War (1648 - 1649) and a second defeat for Charles, who was tried and then executed for high treason. The monarchy was then abolished and a republic called the Commonwealth of England was declared. Charles's son, Charles II, became King after the restoration of the monarchy in 1660.
King Charles I was canonized by the Anglican Communion as Saint King Charles, the Martyr, his Feast Day is 30 January.
“‘In 1630-42, when he governed without calling a parliament, King Charles I multiplied his enemies by imposing irritating financial exactions upon various classes of the community, using prerogative powers exercised by the king in centuries past. He demanded “ship money” from the towns, fined country gentlemen (including Cromwell) for refusing to accept knighthood, raised “forced loans,” and increased customs duties. He did all this because he had no right to levy fresh taxes without the consent of Parliament; indeed, his broad aim was to secure the financial independence of the monarchy, and to fasten uniformity upon the Church. Thus the king antagonized the Puritan reformers as well as many of the country gentry and townspeople. In 1638 he became involved in a war against his Scottish subjects (he was hereditary king of Scotland as well as of England) when he tried to force upon them a prayer book similar to that in use in the English Church. They rebelled, and he was compelled to call a parliament at Westminster to ask for money to pursue the war. The accumulation of grievances against the king over eleven years made the leaders of the House of Commons aggressive and uncooperative. Cromwell at once showed himself to be a staunch Puritan, and as such gave steady support to the critics of church and government.’”
DIRECT LIFT.
DIRECT FAIL! Nowhere does it say anything about forcing Catholicism on the Scottish Puritans. Charles I is an Anglican saint, not a Catholic saint. He was a Royalist and believed that kings ruled by Divine Right. He attempted to impose an Anglican style church on the Scottish Puritans, in which the crown would approve the appointment of the Bishops as opposed to the presbytery of the Puritans. The opposition to this was called the Bishop Wars. Too often Protestants believe that there was peace and harmony between all children of the Reformation, but this was never the case, particularly where there were Calvinists involved. Historically, Calvinists get along with other denominations only slightly better than Muslims.
As I stated earlier you are entitled to your own religion and your own opinion, but your apparent hatred of the Catholic Church doesn't allow you to change history to fit your preconceived notions.
“Cromwell was one of the predecessors of our American founding fathers for religious freedom.”
Good point considering the personal connection between Cromwell & Roger Williams:
1) Oliver Cromwell (25 April 1599 – 3 September 1658) was an English military and political leader best known in England for his involvement in turning England into a republican Commonwealth and for his later role as Lord Protector of England, Scotland and Ireland. Events that occurred during his reign and his politics are a cause of long lasting animosity between Ireland and the United Kingdom.
He was one of the commanders of the New Model Army which defeated the royalists in the English Civil War. After the execution of King Charles I in 1649, Cromwell dominated the short-lived Commonwealth of England, conquered Ireland and Scotland, and ruled as Lord Protector from 1653 until his death from a combination of malarial fever and septicemia in 1658.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_cromwell
2) Roger Williams (circa 1603 – between January and March 1683) was an American Protestant theologian, and the first American proponent of religious freedom and the separation of church and state. In 1636, he began the colony of Providence Plantation. which provided a refuge for religious minorities. Williams started the first Baptist church in America, the First Baptist Church of Providence, before leaving to become a Seeker. He was a student of Native American languages and an advocate for fair dealings with Native Americans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Williams_(theologian)
3) “As family chaplain, Williams lets his heart go out to one of his employer’s relatives, Jane Whalley, and his early writings concern her. Lady Joan Barrington, her aunt — and also that of Oliver Cromwell — will not tolerate Williams’s thoughts of love and marriage for her niece. In the spring of 1629, Lady Joan ends the whole matter abruptly.
On realizing that he and Jane will never be married, Williams writes, “We hope to live together in the heavens, though ye Lord have denied that union on earth.” By year’s end, he finds another love, Mary Barnard. They marry, and within a year they have set sail on the Lyon for the Massachusetts Bay Colony. On Feb. 5, 1631, Gov. John Winthrop greets the Lyon in Nantasket, south of Boston, after a 57-day voyage. Winthrop’s greeting is mostly for the cargo of salt pork and salt beef. Still, he notes in his journal that among the 20 passengers there are “a godly minister” and his wife. Roger was 27; Mary, 21.”
http://www.rootcellar.us/wightman/9misc.html
4) “At the return of Charles II, regicides who had had the good fortune to die in peace during the Commonwealth were condemned posthumously, their bodies exhumed and abused, and their heirs’ property confiscated. Of the living, twenty-four vanished into royal dungeons or were executed with the cruelty reserved for traitors: a mere dozen escaped abroad. The three who fled to the American colonies have written a dramatic page in our history.
Among those who dared to kill a king on that fateful day in 1649 were Edward Whalley, William Goffe, and John Dixwell. “
“Whalley, Oliver Cromwell’s cousin [& brother of Roger Williams’ one time romance Jane Whalley], had thrown himself into the civil war at the first rattle of sabers”
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1964/1/1964_1_26.shtml
Natural Law,
I went to Conservapedia. I searched “Cromwell.” I read the article. I copied and pasted the quoted section.
I don’t know what else I can tell you. Anyone can go do the same thing and see for themselves.
All of the wiki based sources are only as accurate as their contributors and are often wrong or seriously simplistic and incomplete. It would be a good idea to do some additional fact checking before relying on or portraying any wiki based source as authoritative.
Thank you for the information in regards to Roger Williams and descendants. ...another little fact. At the time of the American Revolution, Catholics comprised about 1.6% of the population in the thirteen colonies.
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