Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
I never called her mediator. I called her an intercessor, an office which is not hers alone. All of us can be intercessors.
Co-redeemer simply means that she worked with Christ in the process of redemption. That’s all. I know you think it means something else, but that’s all we mean when we use the term. How did she work with Christ. She was his mother and raised him.
I’m not going to stop believing that she’s sinless. I think that the Church is right here. I disagree that acknowledging the blessing that Christ gave her diminishes him. She did not make herself sinless, Christ did.
She’s not a fallen creature, thanks to Christ!
“What I find most amusing is that it’s their tradition that says tradition is equal to Scripture in authority.”
Does this mean that tradition is contrary to scripture? No.
Is there any passage which states that Mary herself sinned?
Actually, you are quite wrong.
Nestorius denied the use of the word Theotokos, as you do here, and was condemned for Heresy.
Theotokos means ‘God bearer’, and is where the term ‘mother of God’ originates, and was in use long before the 5th century.
Well, since the question seems to set up a differentiation of definitions, let me ask you: what is YOUR definition of veneration? Does it involve bowing the knee before a statue or icon? Why? One poster has already proven that Roman Catholics pray to Mary; why pay any veneration (or in my view, worship) to any saint?? Who made those people saints? God? No — a group of humans elevated other humans to positions where they have no authority. Scripture states plainly that all who are saved—past, present, and future—are “The Saints.”. God and God alone confers that honorific through his election of and grace to those he calls saves through the blood of his son Jesus! Is not our duty to worship God?
Then, if so, why venerate anyone long gone from this earth? Why not do our duty and worship, venerate, and honor the one, true living God —the only one worthy of worship — instead?
We have access to the Creator of the Universe; if you take time to venerate/worship or pray to anyone/qnything else, you’re replacing God by misusing that time. That is idolatry.
Hoss
That’s true, except we do know that some people, Enoch and Elijah were carried up into heaven.
The argument for her bodily assumption is that it all fits together. Her immaculate conception, her sinlessness and the assumption. The wages of sin are death. As Mary was sinless, death could not claim her and so she was bodily assumed into heaven.
Here is what we do know:
St. Juvenal, the then Bishop of Jerusalem, stated at the Council of Chalcedon (451), that Mary had died in the presence of the Apostles, but the Apostles opened her tomb they found her body missing. They then concluded that she had been bodily assumed into heaven.
This was investigated by the Council and confirmed.
This is why it’s not in the Vulgate. It may have been known previously, but we don’t have any documentation.
Oh, please. If that’s the case, grow up and apologize to me for insulting me by calling into question my intelligence by suggesting I learn logic and English by going to community college.
I mean really.
Hoss
“a group of humans elevated other humans to positions where they have no authority.”
An interesting view, but entirely wrong.
The Apostles were selected, chosen, and appointed by God himself.
The most common statues are those of Joseph and Mary, both of whom were chosen by God himself.
Then you have St. Paul for whom Christ appeared to Him.
Sounds to me that they were all Chosen by God, not men. Would you deny the Damascus road?
.
EXCEPT, when IT IS CONTRARY TO SCRIPTURE, of course.
“Sorry, the assumption was only heard in the church around the 4th century, via pagan sources and certainly NOT apostolic.”
It was confirmed at Chalcedon in the 5th century. Chalcedon is pagan?
Seems to me the source was accurate.
GOD BEARER
is
not
the SAME as
MOTHER OF GOD.
The implications are far different.
Since when have "legal parameters" prohibited ones thoughts or conclusions regarding matters of faith? You cannot honestly say ones faith does not enter their decisions regardless if "legal Perameters" dictate that they do not.
A Hindu who believes that life continues in a series of new births is not going to approach my health issues in the same light that a person who knows we have one life to live here on earth..... Who is going to value my life more?
“OTOH, I am totally open to NOT having his odd, multi colored rants to respond to. Absent his posts, mine end. Hey quix, any chance you will stop?”
That would be awesome.
I’d love it if we could get rid of all the multi-coloured posts, and the picture crap that doesn’t belong here either. It’s tiresome and slows down the page.
“The passover lamb without blemish requires that Christ be both man AND God in order to serve as the substitutionary sacrifice. Mary is not God so she cannot qualify.”
What was Christ a “substitutionary sacrifice” for?
Why are they different things to you? I don’t understand this.
For all the sins of man since the fall.
Well I ask.
Where does scripture say that Mary was not bodily assumed? Scripture says nothing about it.
Where does it say that Mary was sinful? Not found in scripture either.
All your arguments here that tradition is wrong are from silence. That’s not good enough for me. Your argument that Paul in Romans clearly states, “All have sinned and fallen short of the law”, doesn’t say, “All have sinned and fallen short of the law, save Christ. He doesn’t make an exception for Christ, and yet you assume that all really doesn’t mean all, and that he was driving home a very different message.
Who was Paul’s audience? Jewish and Gentile converts. What does he mean by all? All who are alive on earth today? Which excludes Mary, and excludes Christ. Mary’s already passed away, and Christ had resurrected when Romans was written.
Mary could not die because she was sinless...Yet Jesus died...
St. Juvenal, the then Bishop of Jerusalem, stated at the Council of Chalcedon (451), that Mary had died in the presence of the Apostles, but the Apostles opened her tomb they found her body missing. They then concluded that she had been bodily assumed into heaven.
I'd say Juvenal lied...400 years after Christians have been worshiping the risen Lord, some guy determines that Mary was raised without tasting death???
You guys claim Mary is the only person in Biblical history to ever go to heaven with out tasting death...
You guys keep talking like that, I might start worshiping Mary as well...I certainly would if I believed that superstition...
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