Posted on 09/18/2010 8:26:32 PM PDT by markomalley
Say it to St. Paul and St. James who said it. I just read what's written.
Especially to put something in quotes yet not ping the person being quoted. Not cricket.
“I think Protestant heresy is a damnable lie that endangered many souls, and continues to do so.”
Catholic declared Protestant heresy is a damnable lie, according to Catholic heretics who through their corruption of the single Church endangered many souls, including their own.
Meanwhile Protestants moved beyond Catholic heresy and worship as they believe they are called to worship, not how some men in opulent raiment, extracting alms collected around the would like them to.
So who are the heretics? I don’t think it’s an exclusive club, my friend. You just don’t want to believe you’re in it too.
James is talking about the KIND of faith one hasYes, you can say that. You can say that true mature faith is one that is accompanied by good works. But what you cannot say, because on that passage alone, that we are saved by faith alone. We are saved by faith and by good works.
No we are not saved by Faith plus anything!
James is saying if effect, "You CLAIM to have faith? Yet you don't read your bible, you dont pray, you dont help the brethren. You are not showing the fruit of your FAITH. Your faith is not a Saving Faith. Those who have Saving Faith, produce WILL produce fruit. If your "faith" has not produced any Christian behavior you are not justified in SAYING you have Faith.
James affirms that it is not dead faith which justifies but only a faith that is productive of good works and that its genuineness is seen only by good works.
James 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
This righteousness is from God alone.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.
We are Given Christ's righteousness as a Gift thru Faith.
He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
It is thru Faith alone that saves. Works are prepared for us to do because we ARE the elect, NOT to become the elect.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Those who want to be saved by faith and works HAVE a basis for boasting!
29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
A difficult passage in James cannot overturn the multitude of verses that clearly explanation that it is by FAITH we are Saved.
No man has any right whatsoever to determine any church has exclusive rights to Salvation or the Salvation message. Jesus clearly taught this....”what is that to you, you follow Christ”. “What does it matter...but that Christ is preached everywhere”.
There are many pew sitters in every church....unsaved. There are equally many who take communion and or attend mass who are not saved. “having an appearance of” only, yet their hearts are far from Him.
Attending Mass never has saved an individual.....nor partaking in communion. Although if the Gospel message is preached there may be some who respond, but that is the work of the Holy Spirit. He decides and knows whose heart is willing....not man...not a Pope...not a Pastor...and certainly not by the action of taking Communion.
Salvation leads to a relationship with Christ. It does not depend on rites or for that matter even attending a church. The church has always been intended for “believers”...to hear the message, to fellowship with others of like minds, to build up and encourage the believers.
One can wear a dozen crucifixion emblems but that does not make them Christian...(gang members love them)...Another can attend Mass every day and that does not make them more than religious if they do not have Christ.
You are mistaken to be critical of missionaries and the message they carry. We are all called to be so....this is commonly understood...... A church has on the inside and over the door archway a sign which reads as you leave the church.....”You are now entering the Mission Field”.... The moment our feet leave the church we have indeed entered the Mission Field.
I should not express myself clearly? I think Protestant heresy is a damnable lie that endangered many souls, and continues to do so. This is a discussion forum. I discuss. The Gospel tells me to.
I thought the Pope said we are seperated brethren? :(
So, your job is to convert people to Rome even though they have already been converted by Christ?
“You are mistaken to be critical of missionaries and the message they carry”
I’m not critcal of missionaries.
I’m critical of your group CLAIMING THE CROWN OF PERSECUTION from their comfy-chair keyboards because Catholics won’t buy your interpretation of Scripture.
That, is what is disgusting.
This is not what Eph 2:8-10 say. It says that we are saved by grace alone; that grace is not from works but is a gift of God, therefore we should not boast of it; that both faith and our good works come from God as a result of faith. In short, we are saved by grace alone but not by faith alone. Grace produces both faith and good works for those who obey God. Nowhere does that passage say that we are saved first and then do works, even though your translation incorreclty uses past perfect tense for "σεσωσμενοι". Young's Literal Translation has it "ye are having been saved". King James has it "are ye saved". Salvation is a process that starts with the Cross and extends through the entirety of one's life.
Your exegesis is certainly unique. I think you confuse Justification and Sanctification. In Justification we are seen as perfectly acceptable to GOD thru Faith in Christ.
God sees us robbed in White(Christ's Rigteousness) upon conversion. Sanctification is a life process of being transformed to His likeness, IE, Babes in Christ, to Fathers in Christ.
Eph 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NAS)
Not sure how it can be any clearer. Saved thru Faith, NOT of ourselves, Gift of GOD, NOT a result of works, can't boast, HIS workmanship, Created in Christ FOR good works (Horse/cart).
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom.9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom.10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." GRACE is unmerited FAVOR, not just sanctifying to enable you to cooperate to attain salvation.
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9 Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
Thanks, I pointed that out in post 465, and got no reply. Then in 488 metmom came on and said that dr. e. never said “ALL Catholics.”
It makes me wonder how far they will go to twist the truth.
Please take me off your ping list.
Perhaps you were not on that particular thread where a half dozen Roman Catholics agreed with the idea that Paul was not to be trusted as an apostle nor as an expositor of God's grace. I don't recall your name or your comments on that thread.
It's understandable that so many Roman Catholics dismiss Paul (to the point of calling Protestants "Paulists") because Paul contradicts Rome in so many ways. Where Paul sees "confidence" Rome teaches presumption. Where Paul declares "liberty of conscience" Rome preaches condemnation (Trent) to all who believe they have been saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
But the fact so many Roman Catholics ridicule Paul begs the question -- either Roman Catholics have been "catechized correctly" or they haven't.
Apparently many of them haven't been.
I do not dismiss St. Paul, nor do I think he contradicts Rome. I think he was likely mentally unbalanced and I find him self-contradictory.
Where Paul sees "confidence" Rome teaches presumption. Where Paul declares "liberty of conscience" Rome preaches condemnation (Trent) to all who believe they have been saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Please cite chapter and verse where St. Paul contradicts the Catholic Church you ridicule as "Rome."
Oh, and I forgot to mention, I don’t LIKE St. Paul.
LOLOL. Another winner! Thank you, Judith.
Popes are "infallible in matters of faith and religion" but the apostle Paul, who was personally confronted by God, was "mentally unbalanced."
How do we trust that Paul was chosen by God to preach the Gospel to all men in truth and light if he was "mentally unbalanced?"
No wonder Roman Catholics don't have faith in the word of God. They believe it was written by knuckleheads with emotional problems.
More hot coals, eh, Judith?
Well the sola scriptura crowd gives plenty of examples of the word of God thrown around the forum by knuckleheads with emotional problems. So I don't see the problem here.
And I have plenty of faith in the Word of God. Christ is the Word, St. John 1:1. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." St. Paul, on the other hand, was likely a mystic with a few loose screws, who had a megalomaniac's inflated sense of his own importance.
Sorry Dr. E. I had to go back and read the original post before I believed it. We all make mistakes may be this one of those times, or it's just another example of how much RC's hate non-RC's.
What is the big deal about my opinion? I am nobody. Get over it.
Thank you for those wonderful, hope endowing verses from Scripture. The passages in James, though few, are used as proof texts by those who desire to boast in their own merits and good works in attaining salvation. But we can know from the hundreds of other God-inspired Scriptures that the real "good news" is that man does not and cannot ever contribute anything to the payment of the penalty of his sin. It is only through the sacrifice of Christ in our place - his shed blood for the propitiation of our sins - that we can receive the gift of eternal life with him in Heaven. James, read in this context, then becomes perfectly clear and those who want to twist it to mean they have anything to boast of are proven incorrect. It confirms the Gospel of grace and does not contradict it.
I praise God that he has given me eternal life by grace through faith and this knowledge has changed me intrinsically. I am not the same person I was before. I have grown in the faith. I have grown closer to the Lord with each passing year and this is how our Heavenly Father works within us. I do not presume to judge another's faith or walk with Christ based upon the labels they use to identify themselves.
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