Posted on 08/27/2010 11:45:13 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
Once again you prove you can't provide proof of another dogmatic claim of yours. But that's to be expected of an
Catholics believe no men or women have that right, hence our problem with Calvin, Luther, Zwingli and a host of petty reformationists and their followers.
I've dealt with you often enough to know that your standard of proof depends on which side of the argument you take and that proving a negative is an impossible task.
Childish insults presented and html images only illustrate the vacuousness of your arguments.
Thank you for the kind words! I hope the second shift shows up soon, though, because I’m getting pretty tired. Maybe I’ll go to one of the “unmolested” threads and relax a while! :)
Newman was hardly ridiculing Christianity but rather pointing out the origins of what the Catholic Church was practicing under the rubric of Christianity.
The pagan practices may have been brought into the Catholic Church but the Christianity of the Scriptures was a God given revelation
And at the same time saying it didn’t matter as bringing such pagan teaching and practice into the Catholic Church some how “sanctified” it.
In this Newman was quite in line with The Catholic Encyclopedia quote I posted.
There was no "Catholic Church", there was no unanimity of thought, there was no such thing as a Papacy prior to Constantine. Constantine chose the "winner" and provided the protection and patronage for the establishment of the "Catholic Church".
Even as Paul said, earlier quoted, the things the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and further that one could not eat at the table of God and that of demons at the same time. So, no, I couldn't say God sanctified the festivals of the pagans.
“The Catholic Encyclopedia is just giving a cursory overview — you can't pretend to believe that brief article is an exhaustive scholarly investigation.”
True, but you were provided with a scholarly investigation and that somehow wasn't acceptable.
What are you talking about? I said the freethinker movement of the 19th century ridiculed and dimissed Christianity as merely another superstitious pagan corn god myth -- it has the dying-and-rising again god, the passage about "unless the seed fall into the ground and die," and the identification of Christ's body with bread -- open and shut case for the freethinkers. They also maintained that the world as we know it had always existed and always would, without any superfluous Creator.
Newman had nothing to do with them. He was part of the Oxford Movement. Maybe you confused them, though it's hard to see how.
The pagan practices may have been brought into the Catholic Church but the Christianity of the Scriptures was a God given revelation
Nobody claimed otherwise -- well, except for the freethinker movement!
And at the same time saying it didn’t matter as bringing such pagan teaching and practice into the Catholic Church some how “sanctified” it.
What pagan "teaching"? AFAIK, there never was anything in any form of paganism that amounted to "teaching" in any meaningful sense of the word. They had practices and customs and the inborn impulse to worship they knew not what, made up some stories to fill the gap.
And, yes, Newman is in line with the Catholic Encyclopedia. So don't celebrate Christmas (the New England Puritans forbade any celebration of it) or have a Christmas tree or wear a wedding ring or sing at church services (without a church building, because that's pagan in origin) if you feel so strongly about it. It's still a free country, sort of.
I've dealt with you often enough to know when you make a purely fictional POSITIVE statement of "fact" you'll slink away when challenged.
Pagans had harvest festivals, too, to give thanks in whatever inchoate expression they could manage. Harvest festivals are as old as humanity, as far as we can tell. Granted, the Semitic forms of paganism surrounding the Jews were more brutal and brutish than many other forms. Classical paganism was restrained and civilized by comparison; I believe the temple prostitution and such at that time was confined to various of the "mystery cults" that flourished and not mainstream, but I could be wrong.
So, no, I couldn't say God sanctified the festivals of the pagans.
I believe I said (at least I meant to) that the idea of festivals was sanctified, that the Jews were to keep festivals sacred to God. But festivals were already ancient.
True, but you were provided with a scholarly investigation and that somehow wasn't acceptable.
Do you mean the Newman piece? Newman was brilliant and educated, but (for obvious reasons) dependent on 19th century sources. There's been a lot of research done since.
Pray, enlighten us, or do you mean to say *incompatible with Catholicism?*
No, I said exactly what I meant to say. Any dogma that places the letters of Paul above the words of Christ is not Christian, but Paulian.
Catholic theologian and church historian Klaus Schatz made a thorough study, published in 1985, that identified the following list of ex cathedra documents (see Creative Fidelity: Weighing and Interpreting Documents of the Magisterium, by Francis A. Sullivan, chapter 6):
“Tome to Flavian”, Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;
Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just prior to final judgment;
Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception;
Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.
The Plan of Salvation was revealed to Abraham and nations knew that the Savior was to come to the world through the Jews.The line descended from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob, etc. but others even to this day, (Islam) claim it for themselves. Satan has done everything he can to counterfeit it.
The Plan was revealed to the Jews before they resided in Egypt where they would have learned of Osirus and in Babylon where they would have learned of Tammuz and the Queen of Heaven. The bible condemns the worship of Tammuz and the Queen of Heaven
“What pagan “teaching”? AFAIK, there never was anything in any form of paganism that amounted to “teaching” in any meaningful sense of the word. They had practices and customs and the inborn impulse to worship they knew not what, made up some stories to fill the gap.”
Here is what Newman said in his Essay,
“The phenomenon, admitted on all hands, is this: That great portion of what is generally received as Christian truth is, in its rudiments or in its separate parts, to be found in heathen philosophies and religions. For instance, the doctrine of a Trinity is found both in the East and in the West; so is the ceremony of washing; so is the rite of sacrifice. The doctrine of the Divine Word is Platonic; the doctrine of the Incarnation is Indian; of a divine kingdom is Judaic; of Angels and demons is Magian; the connexion of sin with the body is Gnostic; celibacy is known to Bonze and Talapoin; a sacerdotal order is Egyptian; the idea of a new birth is Chinese and Eleusinian; belief in sacramental virtue is Pythagorean; and honours to the dead are a polytheism. Such is the general nature of the fact before us; Mr. Milman argues from it ‘These things are in heathenism, therefore they are not Christian’. We, on the contrary, prefer to say, ‘these things are in Christianity, therefore they are not heathen! ... so the philosophies and religions of men have their life in certain true ideas, though they are not directly divine.”
You DID ask if I had any quotes from Newman.
well give us some examples or, retract the statement, empty assertions
And referring to "the Plan of Salvation" as you do, you make it sound like bad sci-fi.
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