Posted on 08/27/2010 11:45:13 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
Oh, well-—it takes an old one to call out an old one :-)
What took you so long getting around to it?
“”there is no evidence that they were a “love gift” from God and not Satan””
Padre Pio’s life imitates Christ in love,thus could not be from satan.Thus,the evidence is crystal clear Padre Pio is of Christ
RN-7””Lets look at that HE SAID””
Lets look at the many miracles Christ worked through him and what happened when Padre Pio prayed for people instead of quotes from your anti Christ website.
Some examples
http://www.basilica.org/pages/ebooks/Brother%20Lawrence%20Mary-The%20Miracles%20of%20Saint%20Padre%20Pio.pdf
With more than a thousand miraculous cures obtained through Padre Pio’s intercession,we can do no more than consider a few of them. There is the case of Gemma di Giorgio,
the little girl who was born blind, having no pupils in her eyes. After her visit with PadrPio, she miraculously gained her sight. The continuing miracle was that, although she
could now see, her eyes remained without pupils.
One Signora Massari had been stone deaf for twenty years. After asking for a curethrough the intercession of Padre Pio, she suddenly began to hear the priest chanting
during the Mass. As she left the church, she heard the bells tolling for the first time in two decades. Excitedly, she informed her companion of the cure. Two years later they visited San Giovanni, the home of Padre Pio, and relayed what had happened. Signora Massarihad perfect hearing from the day she heard the priest at Mass until the day she died.
In 1919, a priest brought his friend, a Jew named Lello Pegna, to visit Padre Pio. Pegnwas totally blind. The priest had evidently brought him to San Giovanni Rotondo in the hopes of a cure. Although Padre Pio was kind to Pegna, he said, “The Lord will not grant you the grace of physical sight unless you first receive sight for your soul. After you are baptized, then the Lord will give you your sight.” Some months later, a grateful, newly baptized Pegna returned. He explained that, against the wishes of his family, he was baptized into the Catholic Faith. Gradually, over several months, his sight was fully restored. He continued to keep in touch with the friary and, thirty years later, his sight remained perfect.
More dramatic were the events surrounding Giovanni Savino. He and his wife, Rosa, became devoted spiritual children of Padre Pio. In February, 1949, Giovanni was working on an addition to the friary at San Giovanni Rotondo — Padre Pio’s residence. One day, after Mass, Padre Pio blessed him as was customary, but suddenly embraced him exclaiming, “Courage, Giovanni, I’m praying to the Lord that you might not be killed.” Padre Pio repeated this unnerving warning for the next two days. The day following the third warning, February 15, Giovanni and another worker had placed a
charge of dynamite under a boulder. When the fuse failed to ignite the charge, Giovanni went over to see what the problem was. The dynamite blew up in his face, which was
badly mangled. His left eye was filled with “many foreign bodies” and his right eye was nothing but a “bloody pulp.” The doctors felt that they could save his left eye, but
determined that nothing could be done for the right one that had been destroyed Padre Pio asked everyone to pray for Savino. He exposed the Blessed Sacrament and prayed before It for three days. The friar was even heard to offer one of his eyes for the return of Giovanni’s sight “because he’s the father of a family.” On the morning of
February 25, Savino smelled a sweet fragrance (a frequent accompaniment to the action of Padre Pio’s intervention). He felt three slaps on his forehead and understood it to be
Padre Pio next to his bed. Later that morning the ophthalmologist came to examine his left eye — the one he felt he could save. Suddenly Savino exclaimed that he could see. When the doctor asked him to turn his head so that Giovanni could see him with his left eye, Giovanni exclaimed that it was his right eye he could see with. The doctor insisted that the right one had been totally destroyed and that he must be mistaken. However,
there was no mistake. Giovanni had completely regained the sight in his right eye,although it remained nothing but “a mess” until his death twenty-five years later at the
age of sixty. The left eye never recovered. Giovanni Savino literally saw without eyes.The ophthalmologist, who was an atheist at the time, converted to the Catholic Faith
“because,” he said, “this has happened right in front of me.”
A characteristic of many of the miraculous cures effected through Padre Pio’s intercession was that the damaged organ would remain damaged, but would begin to function perfectly after his intervention. In a sense, these cures became long term miracles — on-going testimonies to the Catholic Faith, God’s Particular Providence, and the veracity of Padre Pio’s message of prayer and suffering for the salvation of souls.
Only a sick or demonac person would call these miracles the work of the devil!
Well put.
Thx.
And BTW, lots of the OT is poetry, in addition to Psalms, of course (or do you think Psalms is “useless”?) and those “songs” clearly identified in the text in historical portions — all of Song of Songs, the main part of Job, chunks of the prophets. Some editions of the Bible show these sections typographically, some don’t.
Paul taught the plan Christ gave to Him
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Interesting report:
From Hofstra University’s professor Charol Shakeshaft.
. “SEXUAL ABUSE IN SOCIAL CONTEXT:
CATHOLIC CLERGY AND OTHER PROFESSIONALS”
According to a survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv]
Finally, in the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests, it was determined that between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and 3 percent.[xxii]
Shakeshaft has also determined that 15 percent of all students have experienced some kind of sexual misconduct by a teacher between kindergarten and 12th grade; the behaviors range from touching to forced penetration.[xxxvi]
In a survey for the Wall Street Journal-NBC News, it was found that 64 percent of the public thought that Catholic priests frequently abused children.[xxxix] This is outrageously unfair, but it is not surprising given the media fixation on this issue
http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm
Where did you come up with that fact? From the website...
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Nothing about their religion.
Paul didn't devise the plan but he refers to it as his own since it was given to him to take to the Gentiles...The word of God means so little to you guys...
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Look around. In our small town two priests were convicted of sexually abusing young boys.
There's hardly a town or parish that hasn't experienced this same kind of sexual abuse.
Over $2,000,000,000 recently paid out in settlements in the U.S. alone.
And while sexual abuse can occur in public schools, it is primarily heterosexual. In Roman Catholic schools and churches, it is overwhelmingly homosexual.
Why would I??? There are some Protestant organizations that are just as far out in the twilight zone as you guys...
No one calls it “Paul’s plan.”
Roman Catholic apologists, however, do believe it is “Rome’s plan” which states “salvation comes through the church.”
To their discredit.
You forget, someone recently posted some of Pio's future prophecy...The guy's a kook and a false prophet...And if he performed any miracles, there's nothing to prove that their source was God...
I don't know that any of the scriptures are poems...Some scripture is 'songs'...But one thing I know for sure is that it's all scripture...
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If he did not repent from that lie on his deathbed, it's not too much of a jump to speculate Padre Pio is burning in hell.
"Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD of hosts is his name. He will surely plead their cause, that he may give rest to the earth, but unrest to the inhabitants of Babylon." -- Jeremiah 50:34
So which is to be given the primary and which is to be the secondary or supporting role, the words given directly to us by Christ or those filtered through Paul?
Francky, I've seen her presented with this and numerous other corroboirating studies at least a dozen times without any effect. The truth is not important when the Catholic Church can be slandered.
> “They need to pick up a Bible and read it for themselves. To trust God to guide them. To trust the Holy Spirit to enlighten their understanding. To trust God alone.”
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But were they to do that, they would have to leave the ‘Catholic’ church or be torn in two spiritually.
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> “Your simple yet profound question reveals the lie at the heart of Romanism — legalism saves”
.
Not just Romanism, but every other scheme devised by men echos that losing theme: Earn your way to eternal life, and don’t worry about what God says; he’ll have to take you in.
.
> “Um, you’re the sola Scriptura person here — show us a scriptural text that says it’s not.”
.
Fabulously illogical!
Were the Bible to list all that is ‘not,’ it would be larger than the library of congress.
That is why the word of God states only what is of him.
.
Did you mean to say "developed in the fourth century?
Suffice to say I may well have been declared a Heretic with Arius. The question of "Trinity" in Scripture is an interesting one, based on Matthew 28:19 which did not exist in any MSS well into the 4th century and may well have been a "convenient" addition.
In any event, I accept Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
That is enough for me.
You may or may not be interested in a rather lengthy discussion of the aunthenticity of Matthew 28:19. (I realize you may have no interest in opposing points of view. After all, your "mind is made up")
The following is a small sample:
ONE TEST is that of the CONTEXT
Examining the context, we find that in the AV the sense of the passage is hindered, but if we read as under, the whole context fits together and the tenor of the instruction is complete:
"All power is given unto ME ... go therefore... baptizing in MY name, teaching them... whatsoever I have commanded... I am with you..."
ANOTHER TEST is that of FREQUENCY
Is the phrase "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" used elsewhere in Scripture? NOT ONCE!
Did Jesus use the phrase "in my name" on other occasions? YES! 17 times!
Matthew 18:5, 20; 24:5
Mark 9:37, 39, 41; 13:6; 16:17
Luke 9:48; 21:8
John 14:13, 14, 26; 15:16; 16:23, 24, 26.
ANOTHER TEST is that of ARGUMENT
Is any argument is Scripture based on the fact of the threefold name, or of baptism in the threefold name?
NONE Whatsoever!
Is any argument in Scripture based on the fact of baptism in the name of Jesus? Yes!
This is the argument in 1 Cor. 1:13. "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?"
From this argument, if carefully analyzed, it will appear that believers ought to be baptized in the name of that One who was crucified for them. The Father, in His amazing love, gave us His beloved Son, who by the Spirit was raised to incorruptibility, but it is the Lord Jesus Himself who was crucified, and in HIS name, therefore, must believers be baptized in water.
"There is but one way for a believer of the things concerning the Kingdom of God, and the Name of Jesus the Christ, to put him on, or to be invested with his name, and that is, by immersion into his name. Baptism is for this specific purpose." Dr. Thomas, Revealed Mystery, Art. XLIV
"There is none other name under heaven" ―no other name or names― "given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12
"As for its significance: baptism is linked inseparably with the death of Christ ―it is the means of the believer's identification with the Lord's death." God's Way, p190
Now the Father did not die, nor did the Spirit.
"Buried with him." (not the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) ―Rom. 6:3-5.
"According to trine-immersion, it is not sufficient to be baptized into the Son. Thus Christ is displaced from his position as the connecting link-the door of entrance ―the 'new and living way.' And thus there are three names under heaven whereby we must be saved, in opposition to the apostolic declaration, 'that there is none other name (other than the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth) under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Robert Roberts, The True Nature of Baptism, p. 13
This, of course, is the same argument as Paul's (see above), and although R.R. did not so intend, his argument is equally effective against the use of the triune name as against the practice of triune-immersion. Were ye baptized in the name of Paul, or the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, or in any other name that displaces Christ from his position as the 'connecting link,' as the ONLY name for salvation? That is the argument, and confirms the genuine text of Matthew 28:19 to contain the phrase "in my name."
ANOTHER TEST is that of ANALOGY
Is there anything in Scripture analogous to baptism in the Triune name? NO!
Is there anything analogous to baptism in the name of Jesus? YES!
The Father sent the Holy Spirit and baptized the waiting disciples with the Spirit in the name of Jesus. John 14:26. There is a reason for this. The Holy Spirit is the promise (Acts 2:33) which Christ received on ascending to the Father and only those who were in the corporate body of Christ, the Ecclesia, which is His Body-only those could receive the Gift, and only because they were in that one Body. The Lord Jesus Christ is the "connecting link" both for baptism in water and for baptism in spirit. John 3:5
ANOTHER TEST is that of CONSEQUENCE
In being baptized, do we put on the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? NO!
Do we put on the name of Jesus? YES!
"Believers of the Gospel Jesus preached are justified by faith through HIS name; that is, their Abrahamic faith and disposition are counted to them for repentance and the remission of sins, in the act of putting on the name of Jesus, the Christ." Dr. Thomas, Revealed Mystery, art. XLIII
Jesus said, "I am in my Father, and ye in me." John 14:20
Paul wrote, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death." Romans 6:3-4, and again in Colossians 2:12, "Buried with him in baptism..." And in Galatians 3:26, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
ANOTHER TEST is that of PRACTICE
Did the Disciples afterwards baptize in the threefold name? NEVER!
Did they baptize in the name of Jesus? ALWAYS!
Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5, 22:16, etc.
ANOTHER TEST is that of SIMILARITY OF ACTION
Baptism is a symbolic rite. The only other symbolic rite of the Ecclesia is that of breaking bread. The latter is the Communion of those who have experienced the former: and none else. This is the Lord's supper, not that of the trinity! (My body, My blood)
ANOTHER TEST is that of SIGNIFICANCE
One significance involved is that of the forgiveness of sins. Jo0hn did "preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." Jesus had no sins to be remitted. Neither had he whereof to repent. When a man brought a lamb to the priest, he laid his hands upon the lamb, and the lamb was slain, and so the man received a remission of his sins. Without the laying on of hands the sin could not have been transferred tot he lamb. This is the significance of the baptism of Jesus by John. When we were baptized (as when John's disciples were baptized), our sins were loosed, remitted, washed away, and we arose sinless. The Lord entered the water of baptism to take upon himself those very sins. He entered sinless and emerged bearing the sins of the whole world!
How do we know?
It was revealed to John, who exclaimed. "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world! John 1:29
It was Jesus alone (and not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who was baptized, and became the Lamb of God to take away the sins of the world.
So that the significance here outlined requires the phrase in Matthew 28:19 to be "in my name."
ANOTHER TEST is that of PARALLEL ACCOUNTS
Now it happens that Matthew was not alone in recording the words of Jesus before his ascension. Let us compare the parallel accounts of Luke 24:46-47, who writes in the third person: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached IN HIS NAME among all nations."
This passage therefore restores the correct text to Matthew 28:19-"in my name."
Futhermore, the last twelve verses of Mark record the last discourse of Jesus before his ascension. If these are to be regarded as the inspired writing of Mark himself, then we have yet another witness to the correct text, for Mark, after using similar words to Matthew- "go ye...all the world... preach.... Every creature...baptize..." Includes not the triune name but the phrase-"in my name."
ANOTHER TEST is that of COMPLEMENTARY CITATIONS
There is a striking resemblance between Matthew 28:19 and Romans 1:4-5. The former contains the Commision of Christ to his Apostles, while the latter is Paul's understanding and acceptance of his own Commission as an Apostle.
And then follows in Romans 1:5, not the triune name, but the phrase-"HIS NAME."
ANOTHER TEST is that of PRINCIPLE
It is written-"Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus." Colossians 3:17
Now here is a principle laid down, and the comprehensive word "whatsoever" certainly includes baptism, which is a rite involving both word and deed.
Now of the alternative readings of Matthew 28:19, the threefold name is clearly not in accordance with the above principle. The shorter phrase is. This item of Internal Evidence, therefore, proves which of the two variant readings is the spurious one.
That this is correct, is proved by other Scripture. It was Paul who enunciated the Principle. Did it, in his opinion, include baptism? Acts 19:3-5 supplies the answer. The baptism of John, like the Baptism of Jesus (then and now), was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38-39. And John preached also the coming of the Messiah who should baptize with the Holy Spirit. The difference between the baptism of John and baptism after Pentecost is that the latter was in the name of JESUS.
NO OTHER DIFFERENCE IS SHOWN IN SCRIPTURE. Now it is written of the disciples at Ephesus that although they had been baptized unto John's baptism, they were later baptized again, in the presence of Paul, but "in the name of the Lord Jesus." Acts 19:3-5
This test provides a doubly-strong proof of the authenticity of the phrase "in my name" in Matthew 28:19.
God foreknew the record of the parting words of Jesus to his Disciples would be tampered with. He, in His wisdom, provided a remedy for those who have "eyes to see" in providing the principle enunciated by Paul in Colossians 3:17 and the record of Paul's application of that Principle in Acts 19:3-5.
A Collection of Evidence For and Against the Traditional Wording of the Baptismal Phrase in Matthew 28:19
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