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Testimony of a Former Irish Priest
BereanBeacon.Org ^ | Richard Peter Bennett

Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

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To: Mad Dawg
trusting God to speak at Ephesus and Chalcedon is hearing the word of God and keeping it

We are told to TEST EVERYTHING. God speaks/has spoken through HIS WORD - and HE does not go against HIS OWN WORD.

my argument is that it makes sense....YOUR argument makes sense.

That's the problem. Obeying God's Word has nothing to do with 'our senses'. That's human understanding. Many of Jesus' teachings don't make 'sense'.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned".

But man in his attempt to understand - in spite of what he is told - leans unto his own senses/understanding/logic. We are all guilty of that - it comes "naturally" (not spiritually).

BTW, my 'argument that made sense' was God's Word not mine. What Truth could I possibly know without HIS Word? none.

Along with 'test everything' with HIS Word - we are to renew our mind - that's taking what God says in HIS WORD and replacing all our sacred cows we held onto dearly over the years with it. Then we are "on our way" to having the mind of Christ - the way HE wants us to see HIM/HIS WAYS, etc. That's HEARING His Word and OBEYING it. On our way but we will never finish until heaven when ALL knowledge will be known.

If we don't know HIS WORD we don't know HIM. Scripture isn't knowing HIM - satan knows scripture - but a fellowship and getting to know HIM as He speaks through His Word. Our fellowship with God is #1 with HIM. That's the reason for Jesus' Resurrection - with our sin nature we were separated from The Father. Now that we are washed clean by the blood of the spotless Lamb and Jesus rent the veil - we can go boldly to Our Father. That's why HE sent Jesus - because HE so loved us - He wanted to have fellowship with us. Imagine that! ;) Like He walked with Adam/Eve. When someone is ALL love they want love, also.

God is not up in heaven with His arms crossed waiting for us to mess up - our messing up is a given - but HIS arms are outstretched towards us. Much like any father who so loves...but HIS love is perfect.
6,641 posted on 08/04/2010 3:31:08 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: smvoice
This SHOULD finally lay the argument to rest. But...

I know, right? But it is a very hard thing to do - Protestants also have !!!TRADITIONS!!! (hat-tip Quix) which they cannot stand to lay down, in order to follow the Word.

Babylon=Confusion

6,642 posted on 08/04/2010 3:31:34 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: smvoice
That's one of those questions that to me is so obvious that I realize I haven't thought about it much.

I DO know I would hate to generalize. My experience of nuns and sisters is that they are eager to tell us what their role is.

"Religious" generally live lives as eschatological signs; they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angles in heaven, sort of.

They follow more or less well, the evangelical counsel of poverty. At least usually the amount of personal possessions they may have is limited even when the community itself is prosperous. The success of Benedictine monasticism turned out too be a great temptation, again and again. If you work hard, live frugally, and "receive gifts from men" you can end up a little more well off than you had planned. That's one of the reasons for periodic monastic reforms.

I don't know much about Carmelite nuns. I do know that both the "Poor Clares" and the Dominican Second Order are enclosed nuns whose mission includes praying for the First Order Franciscans and Dominicans. This takes place in the context of a prayerful and simple life.

I would VENTURE to say that for nuns as for male "religious" the idea is to approach as much as possible a 24/7 dedication of oneslef to living in the Love of God, with as few distractions as possible. However orders have "charisms", for instance to serve to poor, abandoned, and sick. Other charisms include preaching, teaching (and study), and other good works.

Though it's about men and not women, I think "Into the Great Silence", available on Netflix , is a wonderful film about structured communal lives given to solitary contemplation.

Luke describes Mary, more than once, as pondering in her heart about various aspects of her Son. Consequently she is a kind of a hero to contemplatives.

Is this the kind of answer you were wanting?

N.B. I may be away from my confuser for the rest of the day.

6,643 posted on 08/04/2010 3:32:35 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee. here)
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To: the_conscience
None of the premises were proven, only asserted.

Which ones do you have a problem with?

You seemed to place a special requirement on my restated premise that you were not requiring for the other premises.

The requirement your premise failed was relevance/necessity. Which of the other premises do you see as getting special treatment on this requirement?

If the simple syllogism is true but by adding the additional premise makes it false does that negate the simple syllogism?

In this case, whether your added premise was true or false did not effect the conclusion. This is how it is shown to be unnecessary and irrelevant.

6,644 posted on 08/04/2010 3:33:03 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Quix

HEADS UP!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5alY3-ydJ8&feature=player_embedded#


6,645 posted on 08/04/2010 3:33:38 PM PDT by jackv (The darkness hates the light!)
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To: roamer_1
The rise of Pharisee-ism was predicated by one single flaw: The Pharisees came to believe there were TWO Torahs delivered to Moses on the mount...

Interesting. Is there a website you could point to for a more extensive presentation of this? From a couple of exchanges we have had and some other posts I have read, you seem to have an affinity for the Jewish tradition? Are you a Christian?

6,646 posted on 08/04/2010 3:33:47 PM PDT by don-o (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.)
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To: jackv
HEADS UP!!!

What's UP? Has the Mother Ship finally arrived????

6,647 posted on 08/04/2010 3:35:39 PM PDT by don-o (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.)
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To: Jvette
This is no proof that ALL truth is in Scripture, merely that ALL Scripture is true and beneficial for man’s salvation.

A belief that Catholics share, BTW.

How about "[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

6,648 posted on 08/04/2010 3:37:33 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: Mad Dawg

That is a strong word for a time out :)

Hope you are keeping cool ..


6,649 posted on 08/04/2010 3:39:29 PM PDT by RnMomof7 (sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me)
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To: OLD REGGIE
"How about "[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." "

Nothing in there about Scripture, only Scripture, or the exclusion of the rest of the Revealed Word.

6,650 posted on 08/04/2010 3:40:58 PM PDT by Natural Law (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: D-fendr

The third (restated) premise included a necessary condition on the argument. I don’t have a problem with the other premises just the fact that you placed a special requirement on the third premise.

Clearly the third premise does effect the conclusion.


6,651 posted on 08/04/2010 3:42:02 PM PDT by the_conscience (We ought to obey God, rather than men. (Acts 5:29b))
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To: the_conscience

I think maybe I can save you some time here.

Are you trying to get to a proof similar to: The Immaculate Conception must be true in order for Jesus to be God (divine)?

Is this what you’re trying to build to in order to prove the above false, or some variant of this? In order to disprove IC doctrine?


6,652 posted on 08/04/2010 3:42:23 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: the_conscience
Clearly the third premise does effect the conclusion.

Perhaps you have a different premise than the one I'm referring to. I'd have to see it all together. Please post.

6,653 posted on 08/04/2010 3:43:55 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

Nope.

I’m just showing that I can say that Mary is the mother of God is true by the simple syllogism

and

I can say Mary is the mother of God is false with the additional premise.


6,654 posted on 08/04/2010 3:49:55 PM PDT by the_conscience (We ought to obey God, rather than men. (Acts 5:29b))
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To: the_conscience

Ok. It’s the second syllogism I’’d need to see to understand your position.


6,655 posted on 08/04/2010 3:51:00 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: presently no screen name
Our views are so different that it will be hard to find a place to make contact.

The Fathers at Chalcedon and Ephesus did right much testing.

sacred cows we held onto dearly over the years with it.

You know I became a catholic when I was 46. The sacred cows were not a part of my "over the years" herd. They were NEW sacred cows.

Again, considering the hostility with which Catholic views are met both by non-Catholics here on FR and by the world generally, I do not think we can easily be accused of conforming to a worldly understanding. My own sister finds that if an idea is supported by Catholics that's enough reason to reject it. The rest of my family treats me with the strained courtesy one reserves for the head-hunter who somehow ended up at the dinner table.

But the main difference is that you have a starker notion of the Fall. I, personally, do not think Jesus's teachings don't make sense. I think once my mind is renewed, they make lots of sense.

And I think your position is untenable. You say I reason with natural reason, but if you find a text you think contradicts me, with what other than logic do you identify it as contradicting me? It is logic and its principles which will lead you to say you can't think A as long as you're thinking B. And it is logic that you will appeal to to get me to consider changing my opinions. I think it is as true in heaven as on earth that a triangle can not have 4 sides. I think the principles of logic are eternal. So I think that if Mary is not the mother of God the Son of God, then Jesus was not God from the moment of His conception or Mary was not the mother of Jesus.

When I accept that Jesus is God and man and am then told that I think with a carnal mind, I have to laugh.

I don't mean to be confrontative. I think we're going to have to go back and forth for a while and miss each other before we can go, Ah! THERE! There's the shared thing.

6,656 posted on 08/04/2010 3:53:46 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee. here)
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To: don-o
Is there a website you could point to for a more extensive presentation of this?

No, not particularly... but it isn't a hard premise to discover.

Although priests controlled the rituals of the Temple, the scribes and sages, later called rabbis (Heb.: "my master") dominated the study of the Torah. These sages identified with the Prophets and developed and maintained an oral tradition that they believed had originated at Mount Sinai alongside the Holy Writ. The Pharisees had its origins in this new group of authorities.

Wikipedia: "Pharisee #Roots of Pharisaic Belief" (pp.4)

From a couple of exchanges we have had and some other posts I have read, you seem to have an affinity for the Jewish tradition?

I have an affinity for the Word of God. One cannot dismiss the witness of the Old Covenant and still support the witness of the New... When the two agree, one knows one has it right.

Are you a Christian?

Absolutely. Although others would probably disagree.

6,657 posted on 08/04/2010 3:57:18 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit)
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To: roamer_1; smvoice; Iscool
God does not change. Why would He treat the New Covenant any differently?

Calling all dispensationalists.

Jesus also said of the Pharisees that one should do as they say but not as they do. I don't think it follows from what H said of them that he was against all of their "traditions of men." He was very much against the traditions that worked against piety and justice, like "Corban."

But We would say that in the promise of the Holy Spirit Jesus CAN be understood to say that the "all truth" into which the Church would be led might be more than the canonical scriptures.

Sorry. speedy glib answer. Dinner awaits and stomach growls.

6,658 posted on 08/04/2010 3:57:27 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee. here)
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To: the_conscience

I should have added: please post the second syllogism you are referring to.


6,659 posted on 08/04/2010 4:02:21 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Quix
I believe it is part of the BIBLICAL GREAT DECEPTION of the END TIMES.

Could be, but if aliens say Jesus is one of them, they are preaching a new Gospel. Why would Christians believe it? If they do miraculous acts, so what? Christians already should know that we contend not just against flesh but also Satan and his minions. That is why there is the FULL armor of God. Through Christ Satan, death and hell are defeated, why worry about aliens?

6,660 posted on 08/04/2010 4:02:43 PM PDT by xone
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