Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
If we adults leave, then only the theological children will be here in this particular thread, high fiving each other and holding up a sea of mirrots in which they only reflect each other.
Thank you Iscool for these beautiful scripture WORD OF GOD passages..And Thank you Paul for not resisting the Spirit when you wrote down what GOD wanted you to write about 2000 years ago.
Guess your arguement needs to go to the Pope then as The Vatican states clearly that those who have given their life to Christ from non- Catholic churches are acknowledged as “the body of Christ”.
Yes...sorry didn’t respond sooner Boatbum....
Can you imagine had Christ been born in our era? I think Gods timing is so very perfect.
I'm fine watching while they play "Lord of the Flies." Debating with people who have a genuine interest in theology is one thing, arguing with agenda-driven heretics is quite another.
I mentioned the other day on this thread that I am fully convinced that some of the anti-Catholics here are agents of Satan and their willingness to embrace heresy is evidence of that.
"Full of grace" is a mistranslation in the Vulgate and in the vast majority of translation from the original language, Greek, reads favored one.
"What does the Greek say here for "highly favored one? It is the single Greek word kexaritomena and means highly favored, make accepted, make graceful, etc. It does not mean "full of grace" which is "plaras karitos" (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek."
http://www.carm.org/mary-full-grace-and-luke-128
Unfortunately, the RCC can never admit this and continue to point a couple of verses in Luke for fig leaf "proof".
Isn’t there a concept that original sin is transferred from the sperm or seed not the egg?
“”The bible is totally silent and in fact antithetical to the so called immaculate conception.
“Full of grace” is a mistranslation in the Vulgate and in the vast majority of translation from the original language, Greek, reads favored one.””
The original word used is “kecharitomene” in Luke 1:28
,the perfect passive participle of charis, grace. St. Jerome translated it into Latin as gratia plena, “full of grace.” In Greek the perfect stem denotes a completed action with a permanent result. Kecharitomene means completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.
Here is some good info regarding this and the history of it from..http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/07/luke-128-full-of-grace-immaculate.html
The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:
“Highly favoured” (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received’; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow’” (Plummer).
(Robertson, II, 13)
Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated “grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (Vincent, I, 259).
Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as “to endue with Divine favour or grace” (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to “divine favor, that is, God’s grace” (White, 201).
Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary’s personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).
The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:
Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .
(Kittel, 1304-1305)
Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean “a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18” (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary’s sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and “conqueror” of sin (emphases added in the following verses):
Romans 6:14: “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.” (cf. Rom 5:17,20-21, 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)
We are saved by grace, and grace alone:
Ephesians 2:8-10: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (cf. Acts 15:11, Rom 3:24, 11:5, Eph 2:5, Titus 2:11, 3:7, 1 Pet 1:10)
Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:
1. Grace saves us.
2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.
Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It’s a “zero-sum game”: the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7,9; 3:6,9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:
1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.
2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.
A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:
1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.
2. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.
3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).
4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, free from sin.
5. To be “full of” God’s grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.
6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.
7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.
8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.
The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.
In this fashion, the essence of the Immaculate Conception (i.e., the sinlessness of Mary) is proven from biblical principles and doctrines accepted by every orthodox Protestant. Certainly all mainstream Christians agree that grace is required both for salvation and to overcome sin. So in a sense my argument is only one of degree, deduced (almost by common sense, I would say) from notions that all Christians hold in common.
One possible quibble might be about when God applied this grace to Mary. We know (from Luke 1:28) that she had it as a young woman, at the Annunciation. Catholics believe that God gave her the grace at her conception so that she might avoid the original sin that she otherwise would have inherited, being human. Therefore, by God’s preventive grace, she was saved from falling into the pit of sin, rather than rescued after she had fallen in.
All of this follows straightforwardly from Luke 1:28 and the (primarily Pauline) exegesis of charis elsewhere in the New Testament. It would be strange for a Protestant to underplay grace, when they are known for their constant emphasis on grace alone for salvation. (We Catholics fully agree with that; we merely deny the tenet of “faith alone,” as contrary to the clear teaching of St. James and St. Paul.)
Protestants keep objecting that these Catholic beliefs are speculative; that is, that they go far beyond the biblical evidence. But once one delves deeply enough into Scripture and the meanings of the words of Scripture, they are not that speculative at all. Rather, it looks much more like Protestant theology has selectively trumpeted the power of grace when it applies to all the rest of us Christian believers, but downplayed it when it applies to the Blessed Virgin Mary.
"And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior," (Luke 1:47).
We have it on Scriptural authority that Christ died for the "ungodly" (Rom. 5:6). What will it be for Mary? If she was never ungodly then in what meaningful way did Christ die for her? If she needed a savior, then in what meaningful way was she without sin?
http://www.cwrc-rz.org/thlarchive/thla-004.php
I'm still baffled by how such an innocuous term can cause so much distress. If we can't talk frankly and freely on a conservative forum without being constrained by political correctness then we might as well sit down, put our head between our legs, ... and let the Leftists completely take over this country.
So I employ things like the video of the Romanist being counseled by the Calvinist therapist hoping that might wake a few people up to how they're being perceived.
“”If one is sinless, one does not need a Savior.””
The sinless was from the Grace of God,thus, A Savior is needed
Here is a good explanation from..
From Saint Thomas Aquinas Summa Simplified...
The Blessed Virgin Mary was a human being descended from Adam by way of carnal generation. She had a human father and a human mother. If she had not, therefore, been chosen to be the Mother of God, she would, like every other descendant of Adam, have contracted original sin at the moment of her conception in the womb of her mother. But because she was to be the Mother of His Son, God preserved her soul from the stain of original sin from the very instant of her conception in the womb of her mother. God did this by infusing divine grace into the soul of Mary at the very instant He crated her soul and united it to her body. He did it in virtue of the merits of Christ. no descendant of Adam receives the grace of God except through the merits of Christ. The Mother of God was no exception to this law of grace. Like every other human being who is descended by carnal generation from Adam, the Blessed Virgin Mary needed to be redeemed by the Blood of Christ. But whereas every other human being needs to be clean sed from the stain of original sin - which he has contracted by way of carnal generation from Adam - the Virgin Mary did not need to be cleansed from original sin. She never contracted this stain of sin. Through the grace of Christ, she was preserved from the stain of sin from the first moment of her conception in the womb of her mother. This is the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God. Because of the widespread misunderstanding of the meaning of this doctrine, it might be well to mention here that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary is a different doctrine from the doctrine of Virgin Birth of Christ. the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception means that Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin from the first moment of her conception in the womb of her mother. The doctrine of the Virgin Birth of Christ means that Christ was conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit without the agency of any human father.
Where is this stated in the Bible?
1.The Nestle Aland 26th edition, Greek New Testament Interlinear - "having gone into her he said rejoice one having been favored, the master is with you."
2.The NRSV English Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament - And he came to her and said, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
3.American Standard Version - "And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee."
4.English Standard Version - "And he came to her and said, Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!
5.Today's English Version - '"The angel came to her and said, “Peace be with you! The Lord is with you and has greatly blessed you!”
6.King James Version- "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
7.New American Standard Bible - "And coming in, he said to her, Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.
8.New International Version - "The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.
9.New King James Version - "And having come in, the angel said to her, Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!
10.Revised Standard Version - "And he came to her and said, 'Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'
11.New Revised Standard Version - And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
12.The New Century Version - The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord has blessed you and is with you.”
13.New Living Translation - Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!'”
14.The Cambridge Paragraph Bible - And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, 'thou that art 'highly favoured, 'the Lord is with thee: 'blessed art thou among women.
15.The Holman Christian Standard Bible - "And the angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you."
16.International Standard Version - '"The angel'' came to her and said, “'Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!"
What does the Greek say here for "highly favored one? It is the single Greek word kexaritomena and means highly favored, make accepted, make graceful, etc. It does not mean "full of grace" which is "plaras karitos" (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek.
•5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored.”1 •5487 χαριτόω [charitoo /khar·ee·to·o/] v. From 5485; TDNT 9:372; TDNTA 1298; GK 5923; Two occurrences; AV translates as “be highly favoured” once, and “make accepted” once. 1 to make graceful. 1a charming, lovely, agreeable. 2 to peruse with grace, compass with favour. 3 to honour with blessings.2
Therefore, we conclude that the Roman Catholic Church has manufactured far too much doctrine concerning Mary out of the erroneous translation of the Latin Vulgate Bible and that the RCC needs to recant its false teaching concerning Mary.
Mary was a very blessed woman. She was graced with the privilege of being able to bear the Son of God. We should never forget her high privilege in this respect. However, we must not elevate her to a level beyond that which is prescribed in Scripture. To do so is to be in error, the very error that is taught in the Roman Catholic Church.
We urge Roman Catholics not look to Mary. Instead, they should look to Jesus alone. He alone is the sinless one, the perfect one, the Lord, the mediator, the forgiver of our sins. It is he alone to whom we should appeal and trust for the forgiveness of our sins. We should not look to any creature, no matter how blessed that creature may be.
http://www.carm.org/mary-full-grace-and-luke-128
It’s right there, IMPLICITY stated right between the EXPLICIT lines of Scripture..you can’t miss it..unless you are purposely trying to read God’s Word as it is ACTUALLY WRITTEN...;)
Thanks for asking.
Appreciate YOUR vulnerability in sharing your own progression through such.
Not something I think about much.
I think those of us who have not had an ivory tower life have many opportunities to re-evaluate past perspectives and come to new conclusions.
I will have to think on this some more.
"For perverse thoughts separate from God: and his power, when it is tried, reproveth the unwise: [4] For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins. [5] For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee from the deceitful, and will withdraw himself from thoughts that are without understanding, and he shall not abide when iniquity cometh in."Wisdom 1:3-5
Thus,God Incarnate could not dwell in a body of sin!
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