Testimony of a Former Irish Priest

Maybe, as an English As a Second Language teacher for 15 years, I can be of some help. "clique" = GROUP . . . AS IN A COLLECTION OF PEOPLE--TECHNICALLY AT LEAST 2 OR MORE. PERSONAL = individual . . . as in ONE person . . . Maybe that can be helpful. Learning to distinguish between one block vs two or more blocks is usually a very early EUREKA moment. However, discovery at any age is a treasure.

How telling it is that response is given to one half of the insult "rabid clique". Seems to be a current fave.

I’ve never observed mangling of Scripture to be the least bit of a route to truth nor to authentic spirituality.

LOL! I believe you misspelled “Thanx”.

Concrete walls tend to require a lot of persistent hammering.

LOL.

“I’ve never observed mangling of Scripture to be the least bit of a route to truth nor to authentic spirituality.”

GREAT REBUTTAL! JUST GREAT.

Add the words “rabid clique” to it in technicolor and then I can pass over your posts better.

You may want to check your source for this excerpt.

My source for The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnæans is The Christian Classics Ethereal Library and it's run by Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I'm sure they would be delighted to hear from you if you think they have too much of a pro-Catholic bias.

As for the use of the term "Roman Catholic Church," you are correct that term came much later, but we are talking about the Catholic Church of which Benedict XVI is the Pope.

Your contention about the primacy of the pope not yet being defined is true, but gravity wasn't defined until the 17th century and people still had a fear of falling.

In this letter the words "Catholic Church" are not capitalized.

Again, you might want to take that up with the people at Calvin College.

He was clearly speaking of the catholic or universal church of the believers in Jesus Christ.

I couldn't agree more.

I don't think anyone will dispute the importance of the authority of the local bishop to the local church in those days but Ignatius was NOT referring to the Bishop of Rome in this letter.

That is an OPINION that cannot be substantiated.

“I’ve never observed mangling of Scripture to be the least bit of a route to truth nor to authentic spirituality.”

And you consider yourself to be the arbiter of authentic spirituality?

You do know that the Hokey Pokey itself is an anti-Catholic slur, right? Or were you just being cute?

We've had a nice little detour into the biases of Barna, but you still have not addressed the unbiased stats in post # 877.

Why is it that evangelical Christians have a statistically significant higher divorce rate? And do you at least cede my original point that you were contesting?

!NO!

I didn't know that AT ALL.It was just a fun skating rink thingy growing up. I'll check the link. I'm still skeptical.

Our Qwest internet connection here is extremely spotty recently. Today, it's good for seconds at a time. Repairman supposedly will come tomorrow afternoon. Lots of static on our voice connection which is on the same line.

Regardless of how the song originated, it appears that it is now used to denigrate Catholics:

From Wikipedia:

"The Oxford English Dictionary suggests that the phrase "hokey cokey" ultimately comes from "hocus pocus", the traditional magician's incantation. However, the dictionary discounts suggestions that "hocus pocus" in its turn derives from a distortion of hoc est enim corpus meum ("this is my body" - the Latin words of consecration of the host at Eucharist, the point, at which according to traditional Catholic practice, transubstantiation takes place - mocked by Puritan and others as a form of "magic words"), noting that "The notion that hocus pocus was a parody of the Latin words used in the Eucharist, rests merely on a conjecture thrown out by Tillotson". The conjecture put forward by Tillotson reads "In all probability those common juggling words of hocus pocus are nothing else but a corruption of hoc est corpus, by way of ridiculous imitation of the priests of the Church of Rome in their trick of Transubstantiation". The Anglican Canon Matthew Damon, Provost of Wakefield Cathedral, West Yorkshire, has claimed that the dance as well comes from the Catholic Latin mass. The priest would perform his movements with his back to the congregation, who could not hear well the words, nor understand the Latin, nor clearly see his movements. This theory led Scottish politician Michael Matheson in 2008 to urge police action "against individuals who use it to taunt Catholics.” This claim by Matheson was deemed ridiculous by fans from both sides of the Old Firm (the Glasgow football teams Celtic and Rangers) and calls were put out on fans' forums for both sides to join together to sing the song on 27 December 2008 at Ibrox. Close relatives of the song's original publisher and of the song's author have publicly stated their recollections of its origin and its meaning. These accounts differ."

!NO!

I didn't know that AT ALL.It was just a fun skating rink thingy growing up. I'll check the link. I'm still skeptical.

Our Qwest internet connection here is extremely spotty recently. Today, it's good for seconds at a time. Repairman supposedly will come tomorrow afternoon. Lots of static on our voice connection which is on the same line.

!NO!

I didn't know that AT ALL.It was just a fun skating rink thingy growing up. I'll check the link. I'm still skeptical.

Our Qwest internet connection here is extremely spotty recently. Today, it's good for seconds at a time. Repairman supposedly will come tomorrow afternoon. Lots of static on our voice connection which is on the same line.

I don’t always count Wikipedia as the bottom line in regards to all things Catholic. They have a definite bias against all things conservative, and the Church is the heart and soul of conservatism.

What scripture is INFALLIBLE ?? But, but I thought only the pope was infallible.. so I just read the red letters ..Ugggg

Maybe not, but that entry seems to agree with your link.

Just to reiterate Bill's point I want to commend this article which reinforces what we experience and the ruling class mentality going on in Washington.

Link: http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the/

The ruling class's appetite for deference, power, and perks grows. The country class disrespects its rulers, wants to curtail their power and reduce their perks. The ruling class wears on its sleeve the view that the rest of Americans are racist, greedy, and above all stupid. The country class is ever more convinced that our rulers are corrupt, malevolent, and inept. The rulers want the ruled to shut up and obey. The ruled want self-governance. The clash between the two is about which side's vision of itself and of the other is right and which is wrong. Because each side -- especially the ruling class -- embodies its views on the issues, concessions by one side to another on any issue tend to discredit that side's view of itself. One side or the other will prevail. The clash is as sure and momentous as its outcome is unpredictable.
In this clash, the ruling class holds most of the cards: because it has established itself as the fount of authority, its primacy is based on habits of deference. Breaking them, establishing other founts of authority, other ways of doing things, would involve far more than electoral politics. Though the country class had long argued along with Edmund Burke against making revolutionary changes, it faces the uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done? Sweeping away a half century's accretions of bad habits -- taking care to preserve the good among them -- is hard enough. Establishing, even reestablishing, a set of better institutions and habits is much harder, especially as the country class wholly lacks organization. By contrast, the ruling class holds strong defensive positions and is well represented by the Democratic Party. But a two to one numerical disadvantage augurs defeat, while victory would leave it in control of a people whose confidence it cannot regain.
Certainly the country class lacks its own political vehicle -- and perhaps the coherence to establish one. In the short term at least, the country class has no alternative but to channel its political efforts through the Republican Party, which is eager for its support. But the Republican Party does not live to represent the country class. For it to do so, it would have to become principles-based, as it has not been since the mid-1860s. The few who tried to make it so the party treated as rebels: Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan. The party helped defeat Goldwater. When it failed to stop Reagan, it saddled his and subsequent Republican administrations with establishmentarians who, under the Bush family, repudiated Reagan's principles as much as they could.

Yes, thanks. Dave Armstrong has a good entry on the discussion:

Sunday, December 14, 2008

Anti-Catholic Cultural Remnants: Hokey Pokey and Hocus Pocus

Hat tip to Taylor Marshall and Walker Dollahon and the original story from the Telegraph UK.

* * *

The goofy wedding dance, the Hokey Pokey (or, in the UK, "Hokey Cokey"), was, according to Taylor Marshall, "devised by Puritans to mock the priest's seemingly strange movements at the Holy Mass and the words of consecration: Hoc est enim corpus meum." Correspondent Auslan Cramb wrote:

Critics claim that Puritans composed the song in the 18th century in an attempt to mock the actions and language of priests leading the Latin mass.

Wikipedia, in its article on the dance/song, notes:

Other scholars have found similar dances and lyrics dating back to the 17th century. A very similar dance is cited in Robert Chambers' Popular Rhymes of Scotland from 1826. [Dave: see a link to Google Reader for this text]
The Oxford English Dictionary suggests that the phrase "hokey cokey" comes from "hocus pocus", the traditional magician's incantation which in its turn derives from a distortion of hoc est enim corpus meum - "this is my body" - the Latin words of consecration accompanying the elevation of the host at Eucharist, the point, at which according to traditional Catholic practice, transubstantiation takes place - mocked by Puritans and others as a form of "magic words". The Anglican Canon Matthew Damon, Provost of Wakefield Cathedral, West Yorkshire, says that the dance as well comes from the Catholic Latin mass.

[see further related link from Telegraph UK]

The Wikipedia entry, "Hocus Pocus (magic)" elaborates on its similar likely anti-Catholic background:

Some believe it originates from a parody of the Roman Catholic liturgy of the eucharist, which contains the phrase "Hoc est enim corpus meum". This explanation goes back to speculations by the Anglican prelate John Tillotson, who wrote in 1694:

In all probability those common juggling words of hocus pocus are nothing else but a corruption of hoc est corpus, by way of ridiculous imitation of the priests of the Church of Rome in their trick of Transubstantiation.

Note that Tillotson was neither Catholic; nor overly fond of Catholicism; in fact he was an anti-Catholic (to offset any charge of bias in his speculation). Some contend, however, that his remark is to be dismissed as evidence by the same token. For example:

It's fairly common knowledge that Tillotson was more interested in casting doubt on the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation by likening it to a magician's trick than he was in providing an accurate etymology with his anti-Catholic sermon so it may be taken with a good-sized grain of salt.

Wikipedia cites, in turn, the Online Etymology Dictionary ("hocus-pocus"):

hocus-pocus: 1624, Hocas Pocas, common name of a magician or juggler, a sham-Latin invocation used in tricks, probably based on a perversion of the sacramental blessing from the Mass, Hoc est corpus meum "This is my body." The first to make this speculation on its origin apparently was Eng. prelate John Tillotson (1630-1694).

The same work has this for "hokey-pokey":

hokey-pokey: 1847, "false cheap material," alteration of hocus-pocus. Applied especially to cheap ice cream sold by street vendors (1884).

Random House Unabridged Dictionary (2006), as cited on the Dictionary.com site, states:

ho⋅key-po⋅key
–noun

1. hocus-pocus; trickery.

2. ice cream as formerly sold by street vendors.

Origin:
1840–50; var. of hocus-pocus

ho·cus-po·cus (hō'kəs-pō'kəs)
n.

1. Nonsense words or phrases used as a formula by quack conjurers.
2. A trick performed by a magician or juggler; sleight-of-hand.
3. Foolishness or empty pretense used especially to disguise deception or chicanery.

tr.v. ho·cus-po·cused or ho·cus-po·cussed, ho·cus-po·cus·ing or ho·cus-po·cus·sing, ho·cus-po·cus·es or ho·cus-po·cus·ses
To play tricks on; deceive.

[Possibly from an alteration of Latin hoc est corpus (meum), this is (my) body (words used in the Eucharist at the time of transubstantiation).]

AllWords.com is more certain about the etymology of hocus pocus.

In the extensive fascinating web page, "Phrase and word origins," we find this:

Origin of the word "Hoax" (Etymology)

The word hoax first came into popular use sometime in the middle to late eighteenth century. It is thought to have been a contraction of the word hocus from the conjuror's term hocus pocus. The term hocus pocus itself first appeared in the early seventeenth century. It might have derived from the assumed name of a conjuror in the time of King James who called himself 'The Kings Majesties most excellent Hocus Pocus' because with the performance of every trick he used to call out the nonsense phrase, "Hocus pocus, tontus talontus, vade celeriter jubeo" (later magicians were known to use the phrase "Hax pax max deus adimax"). This phrase was itself probably an imitation (or mockery) of the phrase used by priests of the Church of Rome when they performed the act of transubstantiation, "hoc est corpus".

(extract from the "Museum of Hoaxes" site)

In a fun site called Everything You Know About English is Wrong, an argument is made by Bill Brohaugh that the etymology of hocus pocus from the Mass is incorrect. An intelligent counter-argument was levied by Joshua Valle:

I might agree that your conclusion may be the best guess that one can make but ultimately it seems to be just that, a guess. We don’t know for example that the jugglers and magicians didn’t replicate the nonsense syllables they heard in the incantation at mass. Tillotson’s apparent lack of methodology does not make his conclusion false, it just does not lend any evidence to it. You can cite Tillotson as the source of a folk-etymology, but you should not use him for evidence against “hoc est corpus” as the most basic source for “hocus pocus.” I don’t deal with English etymology, but it seems to me what you need to do is to give some evidence for an alternative explanation which traces the the use of these words in such a way that rules out an origin in the mass. To attribute them to non-sense syllables which “stuck” somehow, begs the question of why they stuck.

Brohaugh in turn defends his original position, with only slight modification. Fascinating reading!

Hensleigh Wedgwood and John Christopher Atkinson, in their Dictionary of English Etymology (1872; p. 346), opine about hocus pocus:

It has been supposed that they are a jeer at the sacramental words hoc est corpus, but it is most improbable that the juggler (whose interest it is to please everybody) should have made his performances the vehicle of a flagrant outrage on Catholic feeling.

Of course, this is a classic example of fallacious thinking, because they wrongly assume that persons using the phrase would themselves be aware of its etymological origin of 200-300 years earlier. The vast majority of us are usually unaware of the origins of words, which past histories remain a fact (whatever they are) regardless of knowledge about them.

Usually, just the first generation of users of a new phrase or colloquial meaning for a word or phrase, understand where it came from, then in the second and third generations this awareness is lost, as it becomes common usage. Consultation of any etymological source will repeatedly and unarguably bring this point home to all but English majors and those (e.g., crossword puzzle or Scrabble-loving types) who pursue a particular hobby of learning about words and their origins.

I'm certain the actual Catholic teaching on separated brethren has been presented (and ignored) many times on this forum.

Is UNAM SANCTAM actual Catholic Teaching?

Is UNAM SANCTAM an "Infallible" declaration?

Try mixing vinegar with water in a spray bottle. Spray down the burned areas, then keep it covered with a towel. It’s a little stinky, but it should help cool down the burn.