On intemperate and indiscreet zeal. (The Primary Fault of many Religion Forum posters)

Various | Various | Various

[Brian Kopp DPM]

I just did a fairly thorough web search on object versus abject lessons. It appears an "abject lesson" is an eggcorn despite how common it appears in British and Indian press

That has been an object lesson for me. In the spirit of this thread, please accept my abject apology.

;-)

[Mad Dawg]

HOW exactly, without skipping any steps, does “Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death,” NECESSARILY indicate or prove that the person who prays that prayer worships Mary or thinks she is a goddess?

[Brian Kopp DPM]

Once the Nurse Rachett squad of posting nannies

Now that you've read the OP, Quix, in the same spirit, how about knocking off the personal insults which are specifically intended to insult or inflame fellow Christian posters. We both know why you made the Nurse Rachett reference, and its grossly inappropriate.

Thanks.

[small voice in the wilderness]

Why would you ask Mary to pray for you now or at your death when Christ is our intercessor? He makes intercession for the us.

[Iscool]

What I DID present was precisely an argument to show how those statements did not do what you and Quix allege that they do.

No you didn't, because you can't...Taken at face value, those Mary Deity statements are just that...And that's the way they are presented to the everyday Catholics who peruse that website...

The arguments you present don't hold water, scripturally, regardless of your attempt to connect the two...

God specifically warns of the Queen of Heaven...He doesn't warn about just any Queen...It's the Queen of Heaven...The one whom people place above all creation...Just like the one you guys have...

You won't find the Queen of Heaven in the writings of the Apostles, or PolyCarp, or his contemporaries...The position was later added by Catholic officials...That ought to tell you guys something...

[Brian Kopp DPM]

If a fellow Christian asks you for prayers, would you pray for them? St. Paul tells us the intercede for each other, right? Is St. Paul violating this principle that Christ is our intercessor?

[Judith Anne]

LOL! I thought you were joking! No need for an apology, just smile, nobody will know the difference. ;-D

Oh, wait, you WERE joking, and you STILL are...! Went right over my head, ROFL!

My “duh” blonde moment for the day.

[Judith Anne]

I ask her to pray for me at the hour of my death, because she is my friend, a neer failing guide to her Son, my Savior.

Regards,

Nur—Judith Anne

[small voice in the wilderness]

I would assume by ‘fellow Christians’ you mean those who are ALIVE. Of course we pray for each other. And Christ is our intercessor. I wouldn’t pray to Paul to intercede. He’s dead. What about Mary?

[small voice in the wilderness]

Yes, Nur Judith Anne, but Christ doesn’t need her guidance. He is HER guidance.

Regards,

SVITW

[Judith Anne]

That is either a non-sequitur, or a deliberate twisting of words. I never said Christ needed her guidance. I am the one who needs guidance, and Mary is my friend, who never fails to show us her Son, Christ Jesus.

[Brian Kopp DPM]

If I ask you to pray for me right now, would you do so? As a fellow Christian, of course you would, right? And if you ask me to pray for you, I will gladly do so.

You're alive in Christ, I'm alive in Christ, we can both intercede for each other with Christ, right?

Being alive in Christ, does death hold any power over you? If after promising to pray for each other, one of us dies, are we both still alive in Christ? I don't know about you, but being in a state of sanctifying Grace, I can assure you that even after death, I will still be alive in Christ.

When I log off my computer in a few minutes, I have a 45 minute drive home. If I would happen to die in a traffic accident on my way home, I will still be alive in Christ. As I come before Him in Heaven, after my judgement, I assure you, the first thing I will do is take your prayer request before Him as you just asked me.

If I'm still alive in Christ and you're still alive in Christ, why would I not pray for you as you requested?

Any "saint," i.e., anyone in a state of Grace, either here on earth or in Heaven, can pray for anyone else in a state of Grace. Death holds no power over you, me, St. Paul, or Mary, the Mother of Jesus. We can all pray for each other, being alive in Christ, in Christ and through Christ.

[Iscool]

I maintain and have shown how one can say those things without elevating Mary beyond the status of being Christ's mother.

With a lot of twisting and turning but what you say is not what those statements say...

9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.'

No doubt you think electricity is CAUSED by the outlet you plug your confuser into. Without a power plant, the plug is ridiculous. With an outlet in your house, the power plant is useless to you.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Your electrical analogy is just a cover-up for those many Catholics who don't have a clue what Jesus actually said in the scriptures...Apparently to turn them to the Queen of Heaven that God warns about...

There's no evidence in the scripture or the writings of the early church fathers that Mary could draw the number 1, let alone draw anyone to God, manifest in the flesh...

Contrary to your great swelling words (2Pe 2:18) ONLY God draws people to the Son...Your Mary draws people to herself...

[small voice in the wilderness]

a neer failing guide to her Son, my Savior.

Then what does this mean? You are saying that she shows you her Son, Jesus Christ. You don't have to go through her to see Him. If you meant this another way, please..explain it to me. Regards, SVITW

[Mad Dawg]

It's hard to know where to begin. I was even going to let this slide until we came to Saul and the witch of Endor.

Saul himself thought that conjuring the dead was wrong. he had passed laws against it.

WE believe, as our Lord says, He is the God of the living, for all live to Him. We also believe, As St Peter says, that Jesus set people free from Hell. And we further believe, as the Gospels report that Moses and Elijah -- and not their "shades" appeared with Jesus at the Transfiguration.

We are Biblical and do not hold the unBiblical belief that those who have fallen asleep are dead.

And yet we are accused night and day of not taking the Bible for our guidance!

but I have determined thus far there just isn't scripture to support the authors statements...

Not only is there plenty of Scriptural evidence, as just referred to, to dispute your bizarre notion that Mary is dead, but the rest of the evidence AGAINST what the Church does is as valueless as the contention, flying RIGHT in the face of what our Lord Himself said, that Mary is dead.

Consequently, the apparently reasonable, though one-sided in its attitude toward the Scripture v. Sacred Tradition debate, stand you take is bankrupted at its inception.

... but in more serious matters of faith if it does not stand the test of scripture then it is just another matter of someones opinion.

That itself is a matter of opinion. Why is YOUR opinion about the role of Scripture in establishing doctrine more valid than any other?

One of the principle shuck-and-jive moves our opponents make is to adopt and change their hermenetuic principles to suit the question at hand.

One of the soi-disant "sola scriptura gang said that God does not hide Himself.

Of course I immediately cited Isaiah, "truly you are a God who hides Himself."

In rebuttal, I was told that that changed with the "work of Christ." I find no Scripture to PROVE that, and none was offered.

But John of Damascus argues that with the coming of Christ (as I think I said earlier in this thread) since matter has born the perfect icon (as Paul says) of God, matter's ability to 'represent' has been lifted up.

But evidently THAT change wrought by the Incarnation is not discussed and not accepted among our opponents.

But why not? What in Scripture makes one change known and another denied?

From here, from the view of someone who was once not fully Catholic but entered into the Church (12/26/94), these cavils seem artificial and forced. One non-Catholic party may say one thing and another another. (You should have seen the donnybrook a few months back on Arminianism!)

Yet when a Catholic looms up on the horizon, these folks unite in the perspicuity of Scripture as long as the Catholic is around. Then, as soon as he goes, they're back to their ceaseless debates about what the Bible says while at the same time they proclaim it's perspicuity.

We have divisions aplenty in the Catholic Church. But at least in principle we agree that the standard of Acts 15 applies: when there is an irresolvable dispute which must be resolved, the Church must and can resolve it authoritatively. We base our approach to resolving disputes on the Bible.

And yet we are accused night and day of not taking the Bible for our guidance!

We might reasonably have differences of opinion about what the Bible says, but to be so regularly, so by rote as it were, accused of being unBiblical seems, at least, arbitrary.

[Judith Anne]

Well, I’ve reached the limit of my courtesy, here. Same old questions, same nit picky persnickety stuff.

[Mad Dawg]

Your Mary draws people to herself..

You know this how?

I know by my experience that it is false.

I am intrigued that you guys just say my efforts are wrong, but do not say HOW they are wrong.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So despite the witness of Scripture, Paul did not bring people to Jesus? I prefer Scripture to the traditions of the non-Catholics. Of course Paul could not do what he did without the Trinity doing it in Him. But we can say Paul brought people to Jesus, while your argument appears to forbid you from saying so.

I prefer Scripture.

[small voice in the wilderness]

Dr., if I asked you to pray for me, I would assume that you would pray to Jesus Christ, who is our intercessor. If you die before praying for me, I do not assume that Christ has no knowledge of my needs until you tell Him. I don't think He's waiting for prayers to be delivered to him by someone before He knows.

Maybe that's just me. But to put Him in some kind of in box/out box prayer request just doesn't seem like something the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the Creator of the Universe, The Word, the Saviour, the Messiah, the Alpha and Omega, would need.

But that's me.

[small voice in the wilderness]

Pray for patience.

[Brian Kopp DPM]

Being alive in Christ, does death hold any power over you?