Priests are a gift from the Heart of Christ, Pope Benedict says

CNA ^ | 6/13/2010

[metmom]

It looks like you could use some of that Tuf Skin NL is pedaling, although it doesn’t appear to be working too well for him, so I’m not sure it’s worth the investment.

[wmfights]

All we can do is hope that God quickens some so that they open their Bibles and learn the Truth rather than depending on others.

[Quix]

I’m well aware of the rabid clique tradition that

what’s good for the gander is

NEVER considered even remotely TOLERABLE for the goose.

i.e. that one of the STATIONS OF THE WHITE HANKY

REQUIRES that all annoying obnoxious posts

ONLY FLOW

FROM RC’s TO PRODDYS.

LOL.

However, given that I’m idly having fun and wouldn’t want my fun to be tarnished with the term Harrassment, have it your way . . . until next time.

[small voice in the wilderness]

I can tell you right now who could play Nurse Rachett. A NATURAL

[Judith Anne]

Five.

[Quix]

Sometimes it seems like some folks’ hearts are

brittle . . .

kind of like Shrillery’s and OThuga’s.

As though they were made out of very thin black, sharp obsedian, volcanic glass.

It’s a dreadfully sad state. I’ve just rarely found a way to be of the least bit of help to such . . . short of the very challenging . . . shredding the old destructive fossilized habits of thought etc. so much that new have to take their place.

[Quix]

I’ve had folks get sooooo angry with my . . . points and/or style . . . that they furiously and diligently went to The Bible to prove me wrong . . . and ended up convicted by Holy Spirit that they were wrong. PRAISE GOD!

I told HIM He could spend me any way He chose to.

[count-your-change]

Shhhh...Keep that to yourself lest you be termed...horror of horrors!!!...a Paulineestanarrianologist. Or worse!!!

[Quix]

IT'S FASCINATING.

How some of the stars of some of the rabid cliques will descend on a thread with furious livid personally assaultive nastiness brazenly blazing.

And then when others turn and chide them for their presentation of themselves and their terminal obnoxiousness,

THEY GET ALL PRISSY AND TRY AND WRITE NEW RULES FOR EVERYONE ELSE!

THE RAGING HYPOCRISIES in such a pattern are always sooooooo pathetic yet somewhat amusing.

The shocking thing is that they seem to think they've fooled God about all that!

[small voice in the wilderness]

LOL!

[Quix]

No doubt.

[MarkBsnr]

Paul was talking about the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man, and he was doing it in scripture.

Well then I will take the words of Jesus talking about how we are to act towards our fellow man; and He is doing it in Scripture:

Matthew 25: 31 14 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 18 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

All men are our concern. Jesus is not of the Calvinist persuasion. He does not say:

or any sort of variation on that theme. All men. All men are willed to be saved; all men are worthy of saving; it is our duty to God to attempt to save them.

[Diamond]

Contex[t], just as the language, is so important in understanding the Bible, Mark. Why does Paul refer to Jesus as the first creature or creation (ktisis) in Col 1:15,...

He does no such thing.

If the context determines the meaning as you exhort, then the context permits no such Arian twisting of Jesus Christ into a created being. (hos estin) prototokos pases ktiseos, "Who is the firstborn over all creation" is a statement of position, not of origin:

[snip]...
Prototokos is used rarely outside the Bible and does not occur at all prior to the Septuagint.26 Of about 130 occurrences in the Septuagint, many stress the relative importance of the firstborn. It is often used in the Old Testament to reflect a special position with reference to God, or supremacy of rank. Prototokos occurs eight times in the New Testament in the singular and each time it is used exclusively with reference to Jesus Christ.27

According to Wilhem Michaelis, the expression of 15b "does not simply denote the priority in time of the pre-existent Lord." On the basis of v. 16, "Christ is the Mediator at creation to whom all creatures without exception owe their creation. . . . It cannot be saying at the same time that He was created as the first creature."28 Karl H. Bartels asserts,

As a title of honour for Jesus, prototokos expresses more clearly than almost any other the unity of God's saving will and acts. . . . Creator and Redeemer are one and the same. . . . In the man Christ Jesus, the prototokos, God has brought his divine power and glory to its climax (Col. 1:19f.).29

C. Moule admits that without a context it might be natural to understand prototokos with the Arians: describing Christ as the eldest among created things. But this interpretation is "inconsistent" with v. 16 and following. For Moule, prototokos incorporates both time and supremacy with "a little more to be said in favour" of supremacy.30

Others join C. Moule by appropriating both ideas of time and rank to this prototokos phrase. F. F. Bruce suggests that this use of prototokos speaks of Christ's pre-existence and cosmic activity in creation. " Prototokos with the genitive has the same force that protos with the genitive has in John 1:15,30: it denotes not only priority but primacy."31 Wright also interprets this phrase as an expression of priority of time and supremacy of rank, together with H. Moule, Lightfoot, Harris and Curtis Vaughan.32 H. Moule suggests that prototokos denotes priority of existence, so that "the Son appears as antecedent to the created Universe" and denotes Lordship over all creation by His "right of eternal primogeniture."33

Richard Melick, however, and G. B. Caird prefer to interpret this prototokos phrase without reference to time. Melick writes, "Therefore the point is that Jesus is the firstborn (preeminent) with reference to the creation just as Paul argued that Jesus was preeminent "out of the dead.""34 And Caird asserts that prototokos in both occurrences denotes "status and sovereignty" with no sense of "temporal priority."35

The evidence suggests that this prototokos phrase as amplified by verse 16 means that Jesus Christ exclusively enjoys a special title of honor and a special relationship with God. As prototokos over all creation, Christ is the uncreated Creator.36 He is prior in time to all creation and He is the supreme Lord over all creation.37 Christ is prior to and exercises priority over the entire cosmos. He reigns over all creation with the highest possible status and sovereignty because He is its Creator ex nihilo.38

If Christ creates then Christ is God because only God creates ex nihilo. His work as Creator is extremely strong evidence for His deity. And since creation is a visible manifestation of the Creator's person and work, then Christ's work of creation is a profound demonstration that He is also the perfect revealer of what God who cannot be seen is like.

Man does not create however. So this phrase may not be used as evidence for the humanity of Christ. And the redemptive work of Christ is not yet in view (see v. 18) so this occurrence of prototokos may not serve to support directly Jesus' role as Lord over the new creation.
[snip]
http://www.ontruth.com/colossianschristology.html

Cordially,

[MarkBsnr]

Show me where Paul quotes God except for the three verses in Acts 9. Show me where Paul quotes God in support of any of his writings.

[metmom]

Jesus is the only one who saves. No man can save another.

The choice is theirs. All we can do is present the Gospel and pray for them.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I wonder if we could come up with a children’s book . . . maybe for early teens

Children and teens could read this regarding the priestcraft, but it's more geared toward adults...

ROMAN CATHOLICISM
Part 3
THE PRIESTHOOD
by Loraine Boettner

For something more succinct, try giving them this...

ROMAN CATHOLICISM
A Biblical Analysis

Pinging a few others to these informative links.

[boatbums]

I doubt boatbums would pay much attention to what I think, Mark. :) But she is included in my response out of courtesy.

I always pay attention to your posts and thank you for the courtesy ping. Nice to hear from you again. I DO read your posts, but as many can see after reading this one, I don't put much credence in them. A person who is a self-professed agnostic is definitely not going to think of nor see Biblical things in the same light as I do. I expect nothing different, however, this by no means implies I accept your opinions as truth. You have come to them through a certain channel in your life and we may never agree on many things. I do respect you and your knowledge of some things and, like I said, do read them and pay attention to them.

I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement about Peter and Paul not believing Jesus was God. That statement is patently false and I don't even need the writings of Paul to prove it. Peter was in the upper room after the resurrection. When Jesus appeared to the disciples and Thomas, in particular, the following transpired:

John 20:27-29
27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

In Matthew 16:16, the famous "confession of Peter", Jesus asked him, "Who do you say I am?"

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Jesus even told him that God revealed this truth to him and then said the church would be built upon that truth. Do you really think he was thinking Jesus was just a man? What kind of truth is that, weren't they all? And Peter knew the Old Testament prophecies that the Messiah would be "God with us" (Emmanuel), God incarnate, the Everlasting Father and the Prince of Peace.

I have quoted many scriptures from Paul that clearly, at least to me and others on this thread, state the divinity of Jesus Christ. You can refuse to see them in that light, but they ARE there and leave no doubt as to belief of the Apostles in the triune God. This theology was "big time" and God would not have failed to reveal the truth to his future leaders. Nicea confirmed the understanding but did not invent it.

[MarkBsnr]

I’ve had folks get sooooo angry with my . . . points and/or style . . . that they furiously and diligently went to The Bible to prove me wrong . . . and ended up convicted by Holy Spirit that they were wrong. PRAISE GOD!

No, Quix, this is real life now.

[metmom]

Peter considers Paul’s writings to be Scripture.

Is he wrong?

[MarkBsnr]

Jesus is the only one who saves. No man can save another.

Very good. We agree on this.

The choice is theirs. All we can do is present the Gospel and pray for them.

Wait a minute. I thought that you were of the Calvinist persuasion. Can you elaborate?