Are Catholics “Born Again?”

Catholic Sensibility ^ | March 13, 2010

[ScubieNuc]

I agree with you. We just can’t know. Only God knows who’s saved.

Really? Then why did John write this:

1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Wasn’t it St. Paul who said he worked on his salvation every day- in fear and trembling? He obviously knew he belonged to Christ but that salvation could be lost.

Not quite the right understanding of the verse. The verse you are thinking of is Philipians 2:12, but to understand it you need to look at it's context.

The context is people claiming to have Christ in them, so Paul is telling them to show that on the outside. The word that gets translated "work out" is katergazomai which basically means to show or demonstrate. It doesn't mean what people think of today. Like if my son says that his fishing line is tangled and I say "work it out yourself".

One other aspect of this is that if you believe Paul is saying that a person is saved through their works, then he is contradicting himself from what he wrote to others, like in Ephesians:

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Semper Mark]

"I agree with you. We just can’t know. Only God knows who’s saved."

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
(1 John 5:13)

-----

"It must still be earned. The only way to earn it is to make a lifetime of choices to do God’s will, not your own."

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
(Romans 4:5)

-----

"Wasn’t it St. Paul who said he worked on his salvation every day- in fear and trembling? He obviously knew he belonged to Christ but that salvation could be lost."

The Apostle Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 1:12...

"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

What had Paul committed to Christ? Only his eternal soul. Paul knew that Christ died to save him, and that He lives to keep him saved.

Salvation is a gift that was paid for by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, so the only way for one to lose their salvation would be for the blood of Christ to become of no value. Rest assured that this will not happen.
Puny little mankind thinking that he can work his way into salvation and then has the ability to somehow keep himself saved by his own good works is nothing but pagan heresy.

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"
(1 Peter 3:18)

Christ's death and resurrection is what saves, nothing else will do.

[Cvengr]

By the doctrine of grace, since there is absolutely nothing we can do to earn our salvation, there also isn’t anything we can do to lose it. It is a gift, freely given by God.

There might be those who fail to claim it and when He doesn’t interfere with their volition, they are already condemned and have no other way to salvation except through faith in Him.

[usconservative]

I’ve been a contractor most all my life and the few times I have gotten screwed was from “Christians” from our church. Thank God those types are few.

I've been a Christian all of my adult life and hired a contractor who attended the same church as I, and I got screwed when he took a "deposit" of $1,000 to do some work around my home and ran off with my money never to return to do the work. (Honest, this really happened.)

Thank God those types are few.

No one ever said Christians (or those who profess to be one) are perfect. We are far, far from it. In fact I'll tell you that I consider myself to be the biggest sinner on this thread. No matter how hard I try not to, inevitably I'll do something every day that I'm sure offends my Lord and Savior and I'm supposed to know better.

[OpusatFR]

“And then I guess he would have us believe all these people being baptized in Bible days, also worshipped Mary, did the Rosary, along with all the other non-Biblical trappings that became part of the Papacy centuries later. Quite preposterous actually”

If you can’t fight the Scriptures, bury us in Strawmen.

Raising a strawman argument is trying to deflect the obvious truth.

[raybbr]

Saved, as in saved from the punishment for your sins.

I was "saved" from Original sin when I was baptized. I continue to be "saved" when I confess my sins to God and accept His forgiveness.

[NYer]

However, there is NO SCRIPTURE to support the theory that child “baptism” means - the child is born again.

Where in Scripture does it say that baptism is to be restricted to adults?

Baptism is an outword symbol of an inward change in the heart. Once a person chooses to follow Jesus, Baptism is just a way to outwardly show the commitment to your decision.

Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39). We also read: "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Furthermore, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.

[Desdemona]

I pray that the Lord will open your eyes to the fact that all your so-called rightenousness is as filthy rags in his sight. He desires an intimate relationship with each and every one of us, not just good works, for works cannot save your eternal soul.

I avoid being righteous, truth be told. I may do "works", but a lot of times, not always joyfully (like this morning when I got up in the dark because I have to be at Church early to go over a specific anthem. This isn't just for the poor or the physically ill, but for everyone). We Catholics do good works because Christ asked it of us. We do it for love of Him, not necessarily the Church herself. And, no, if you do not have faith, works alone will not save you, but neither will faith alone. What is done, or not done, in the flesh counts and frankly I have no idea if I've done enough.

[ADSUM]

It is only when He finds you and chooses you.

So you have no responsibility to learn and understand the teachings of Jesus and live according to God’s laws.

I am not sure why you are so negative towards the Catholic Church. It is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes His Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is He who calls her to realize each of these qualities.

(Jesus said) “there shall be one flock, one shepherd. The Church is holy, we mean among other things that she had the all-holy God as her author. One true Church is that this Church is Catholic. Catholic means “universal.” It refers as much to the fullness of the faith she possesses as to the undeniable extension in both time and space that has characterized her virtually from the beginning. Christ founded the Church upon the apostles.

Catholic Christians believe that God loves us, each of us personally. God’s love for us and our response to His love unites us. As with all important understanding of how persons relate to their surroundings, believers pass on to those who follow the guideposts which mark the path of belief.

God wanted all his beloved ones to have the opportunity to repent and he confirmed this desire by his own almighty will. That is why we should obey his sovereign and glorious will and prayerfully entreat his mercy and kindness. We should be suppliant before him and turn to his compassion, rejecting empty works and quarrelling and jealousy which only lead to death.

We should be humble in mind, putting aside all arrogance, pride and foolish anger. Rather, we should act in accordance with the Scriptures, as the Holy Spirit says: The wise man must not glory in his wisdom nor the strong man in his strength nor the rich man in his riches. Rather, let him who glories glory in the Lord by seeking him and doing what is right and just. Recall especially what the Lord Jesus said when he taught gentleness and forbearance. Be merciful, he said, so that you may have mercy shown to you. Forgive, so that you may be forgiven. As you treat others, so you will be treated. As you give, so you will receive. As you judge, so you will be judged. As you are kind to others, so you will be treated kindly. The measure of your giving will be the measure of your receiving.

Take care. I am sure that God loves you, and I hope that you find God and love Him. I hope that you find God’s love in understanding the Catholic Church.

[verga]

This is a copy of a post I made to an online Catholic apologetics group: The Greek word Anothon occurs exactly 12 times in 12 verses in the New Testament. The four words we are concerned with are Anothon which the Catholics contend means "From above" and the Fundies contend means again. The second word is Apanow, which means above/ over The third word is Palon- that really does mean again and Deuteron that means secondly. If Robin and Sandra are correct when we look at each of these verses we should be able to substitute either word and have it make perfect sense. I have included several verses that use the word Palon to document the common use of that word. You will also notice that in John 3:4 that Nicodemus does not use either Palon or Anothon, but rather Deuteron, meaning secondly or second. Matt 27:50 50 30 But Jesus cried out again (Palon) in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit. Mark 15:38 16 The veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top (above Anothon)to bottom. Luke 1:3 I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew (From their source Anothon), to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus, John 3: 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born 3 from above (Anothon)." John 3: 4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a person once grown old be born again (duetron secondly)? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?" John 19:23 When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his clothes and divided them into four shares, a share for each soldier. They also took his tunic, but the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece from the top (Anothon) down. Acts 26:5 They have known about me from the start (Anothon, From the first), if they are willing to testify, that I have lived my life as a Pharisee, the strictest party of our religion. Galatians 4:9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again (Palon) Untranslated word Anothon (anew)to the weak and destitute elemental powers? Do you want to be slaves to them all over again (Palon)? James 1:17 all good giving and every perfect gift is from above (Anothon), coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no alteration orshadow caused by change. James 3:17 But the wisdom from above (Anothon) is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, without inconstancy or insincerity.

[wmfights]

Baptism is intended to lead to Christ, to bring the person in question to faith in Christ, and make him or her a disciple of Christ,...

Interesting post, but you have it backwards.

The Biblical example is first belief in Jesus (repentance) and then Baptism. There are no examples of infants being baptized and then becoming believers in Scripture. It's a great tool to ensure church membership remains high, but in the end it fills the seats with people who don't know The Gospel and are only there because it is a custom they've grown up with.

[wmfights]

Born of the water (water baptism), yes, but not without faith being excercised, not without repentance. Not by infant baptism, rather someone being baptized who is old enough to make exercise faith and repentance.

Once you have Faith you are given the gift of Grace by God. I don't believe there is a waiting period until you are then baptized. If there was this requirement Grace would be from Faith and works (action of being Baptized).

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The Biblical model of baptism is after being saved.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

It is belief that saves not baptism the condemnation is for those that don't believe not those who aren't baptized. Infant baptism is great for church membership but it is not the Biblical model. However, it is not an issue worth dying over since baptism does not impart Grace.

My experience has been Born Again Christians understand this.

[Melian]

The Letters of the Apostles are rife with passages indicating that one must live Christ’s words, not just talk about them.

If mere belief was enough for salvation, why would Paul write to various groups of converts cautioning them that they were on the wrong track? Weren’t they “saved” by virtue of being Christians? No. He wrote because they were in jeopardy of losing their salvation by improper beliefs, misunderstandings, and impure acts.

In other words, their actions were not in keeping with belonging to Christ. Paul seemed to think that was pretty serious!

[Marysecretary]

Good post and true, as usual. Thanks,Wmfights.

[Marysecretary]

If baptism is meant to lead people to Christ, why doesn’t it? I know way too many, including my own relatives, who have NO interest in Christ and they were baptized as infants. No, God draws people to Himself. Baptism is only effective AFTER you have come to Christ.

[Marysecretary]

And that is very sad. You CAN have that blessed assurance Desdemona. When you are born again, God’s Spirit witnesses to your spirit that you are His. You do NOT have to wait until you die to know that. Blessings, Mary

[GOP Poet]

bookmark

[Marysecretary]

The refiner’s fire happens here on earth, not in some fictional place. We are refined for the Master’s use by the cross we bear, by our dying to self...which always hurts.

[Marysecretary]

Yes, we are to serve but that does not save us. Faith saves us and works are a natural result of our salvation. He gives us works to do when we have committed our way unto Him.

[Marysecretary]

Amen.