Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[RnMomof7]

LOL LOL shhhh do not tell my husband that

[Petronski]

...we will continue to place the word of God, not Calvin...

If you posted only Scripture, that would be true.

But when Scripture is posted along with the Calvinist misinterpretation of it, you are indeed placing the word of God AND Calvin before me.

[1000 silverlings]

And this “good nature” that we are born with is the “good ground” of the Parable of the seed. When we hear our Master, we respond, happily.

[Mad Dawg]

What is “calwinos”?

(1)Down and out alcoholics on the left coast.

(2)Checkov of Star Trek trying to pronounce "calvinos."

Do I get a prize?

[Mad Dawg]

... you guys go right ahead, call God a liar and make up some silly story...

I was quoting Calvin's Institutes. Do you mean to say that Calvin calls God a liar?

[RnMomof7]

If Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace were true, then either He should not have gone to the Jews (but He did), or they should have had to accept Him (but they didn’t).

HuH? The Jews were a nation chosen by God for a specific purpose..to bring about salvation to fallen men.

He did not chose any other people.. He chose to save a man that was the son of an idol maker, a pagan and from his loins bring about the nation of Israel.. it was not happenstance.

deut 7:The LORD set his heart on you and chose you, even though you didn't outnumber all the other people. You were the smallest of all nations.

They were elect for a specific purpose. When the time was full the nation of Israel gave us the Savior..

He used that nation to show His glory through and make His name great in all the world..

That was the purpose of their ordination as His people.. among those people were an elect people that would be His adopted children..

[Forest Keeper]

Again, putting aside the term "Calvingod":

1. CalvinGod wills who will be a slave to sin and who will be a slave to righteousness.

Yes.

2. CalvinGod determined that before time

Yes.

3. Calvingod also does not give you free will

That completely depends on what one means by "free will". God gives everyone "A" will, and the will we are born with is not free to come to God. Of course that is not the end of the story because God acts upon our wills.

4. Ergo, all the actions, good or bad that you do are directed by calvingod's hand, you have no will or say in that.

That completely depends on what one means by "directed by". If one means "authored by", then "no", God is not the author of evil. God does not inject people with evil that wasn't there in order to cause it. However, God does withdraw from people and the result is that they act according to their born natures, i.e., they do evil. God can do this with particular results in mind such as when He hardened Pharaoh's heart or He "gave them over" to specific sins:

Acts 7:42 But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: ......

Rom. 1:24-32 : 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

So, in these cases the bad actors did not have free will to do good and avoid the specific sins. I would not call that "authoring" since God is leaving them to their own natures. However, neither do I say that God wasn't involved at all. --- On the other side, I hope you would say that our good actions are a result of God acting through us.

5. So, all the evil that Charles Manson did was directed by calvingod's hand, Manson had no "free will" to choose his path.

The above applies and the Manson murders were a part of God's plan. I cannot explain how the evil of the Manson murders fit into God's plan for good. Likewise, neither can I explain how the evil of Hitler was ordained by God for ultimate good. However, I certainly CAN explain why God ordained for Joseph's brothers to commit evil by selling him into slavery, and I certainly CAN explain why God ordained the murder of His Son.

Manson, Hitler, et al. DID have the free will to commit the evil they did since God did not prevent it.

6. .....[already addressed]..... Calvingod also decided before time that Manson would hence go to hell because of the murders that calvingod did through him

No. God did not commit the murders, Manson did. God did not order Manson and Manson did not obey God. God left Manson to his own nature, and that nature led to the murders. God had no duty to prevent Manson from acting on his own nature. Further, if we assume that Manson is going to hell it will not be solely due to the murders since, and I thought Catholics agree, it is never too late to ask for forgiveness and come to a saving faith in Christ. We might suppose that is highly unlikely in Manson's case, but of course with God all things are possible. If Manson does go to hell it will be because he never had true faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Quix]

AGREED

[RnMomof7]

But when Scripture is posted along with the Calvinist misinterpretation of it, you are indeed placing the word of God AND Calvin before me.

Do you ever post a Catholic interpretation? Actually I do not post anything from the institutes, I disagree with Calvin on many fine points.. When I post I post what I see the scripture say in context

[Mad Dawg]

I have not ever told anyone to repent here on FR or any forum because I believe that it is God that calls on men to repent.

Okay, I'm confused.

In your post here I read:We tell everyone of the need to be obedient to God and to repent,...
That was in response to ROE's saying "We Catholics are frequently told to "Repent".

Maybe it would have been better to deny the dog before you answered Running on Empty.

[1000 silverlings]

In fact, a reading of Romans 5 is extremely interesting. Sin ruled mankind from Adam to Moses, then God gave His elect, the Israelites, the Law. We know now that the Law saves no one, but in fact made sinning worse, in that man was made even more aware that he was a sinful creature. Even so, God saved men in spite of it, not because of it. So the Law saved no one. Only God saves and He chooses whom to save, and we know this because He says so

All men who want to live by the Law have to come to the realization that their efforts are of no avail, and look to the Plan of Salvation.

Under Christ, men still want to think that they themselves have a say in salvation. Maybe there is confusion as to just what the Plan is.

It is God taking human form and accomplishing what no man can, atonement, peace with God.. Making men one with God. Changing their nature.

Men can't change their own nature, no matter how hard they try.

[Petronski]

Do you ever post a Catholic interpretation?

Of course.

Then again, the interpretation of the Church founded by Christ is actually of value.

[Quix]

INDEED.

[Quix]

. . . THOUGH . . . Paul did speak of the two warring . . . tendencies, natures, factions . . .

within him.

[Iscool]

I was quoting Calvin's Institutes. Do you mean to say that Calvin calls God a liar?

Well no, Calvin's one of us Protestants... :)

But no, I don't take sides when it comes to scripture...I don't care if it's Calvin, your pope, Benny Hinn, or Dwight Moody, if I see someone adding to scripture, I'll call 'em on it...

There are plenty of things in the scripture that are not clear, to anyone...But there is plenty that is clear...

[wagglebee]

Actually I do not post anything from the institutes, I disagree with Calvin on many fine points.. When I post I post what I see the scripture say in context

Thank you for your perfect explanation of YOPIOS. However, I've still got a few questions.

1. If the Holy Spirit makes Scripture "self-interpretting" why would two of the "elect" make different interpretations?

2. What possible assurance do you have that your interpretation is valid?

3. Is 2 Peter 3:16 untrue? If it is untrue, what other portions of Scripture are untrue? If it is true, why are you exempt from the warning?

4. If you change your mind about what a particular verse does that mean the Holy Spirit has left you or does that mean that the Holy Spirit wasn't with you when you made your original interpretation?

[1000 silverlings]

I think you should bring annalex into your conversation to offer some insight on the topic because he/she interpreted Hebrews 12:1 for us.

[wagglebee]

I think you should bring annalex into your conversation to offer some insight on the topic because he/she interpreted Hebrews 12:1 for us.

If annalex ever REJECTS Church teachings let me know.

[Alamo-Girl]

Seems to me that when the subject of a Predestination v Free Will debate turns to “work” we should consider perspective.

When we love someone, we want what they want.

If a man loves his wife and she wants the garbage taken out, he’ll see it done. Did he expend energy and therefore "work" under the Physics' meaning of the term? Sure. Was it “work” to him? Probably not, it was an act of love.

Many of us consider “doing” to be the truest expression of love - better than words or gifts. I can say to my husband, “I love you” – I can remember his birthday with a thoughtful present. But in my view, when I quietly do things for him, day in and day out, that is my truest expression of love.

In the Lord’s Prayer, when we say “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven” it should be out of love. We want what God wants because we love Him. Even when it is difficult.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. – John 3:16

Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren. – I John 3:16

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. – Matthew 26:42

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. – Revelation 22:20

So because He wants us to help those who need help, we are expressing our love for Him when we “do.” How could we not? Is it work? Physically, yes – Spiritually, no.

Likewise, because He tells us not to lie, we don’t. We want what He wants because we love Him. And we’ll see it done even if it is inconvenient or painful or humiliating.

If we don’t, then it stands as evidence that we love ourselves more than we love Him. We accuse ourselves of idolatry of self.

The fruits of the Spirit are not ours, they’re His. The more we love Him, the more fruit the Spirit brings through us into the world. God is Love. Love is the first fruit of the Spirit.

We love him, because he first loved us. – I John 4:19

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. - I John 4:8

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. – John 15:5

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. - Matthew 7:17

Love is unconditional. It does not run hot and cold. It is not a thing that it could be earned or traded.

Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying, Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:35-40

So whatever good fruits anyone may see in my life are not mine, they are God’s doing even though I physically and technically have expended energy.

For that reason I say “to God be the glory, not man, never man!”

[RnMomof7]

LOL