Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
If your dad has a mini-tape recorder he could put down all his remembrances for the book you're going to write.
Yeah. I was reading that someone got freaked out because we said such and such was a heresy. You're on the beam. We're saying it's Christian but it's got an error. (Sometimes I would want to suggest "technical" rather than "grievous" to describe the error.)
Try this: in our disagreements, many of us are saying, "We're in the same family but You're one of the black sheep.." So at least we're acknowledging kinship. It could be worse ....
And just to flog it again, and because evidently some find it offensive, "separated brethren" DOES acknowledge the family relationship. It's not ALL bad.
Are you contending that there is more than one God or that Muslims have the ability to change God through the descriptions of their faith?
Here is a treasure from Vatican 2’s Lumen Gentium that explains our companionship with the Saints beautifully
“For just as Christian communion among wayfarers brings us closer to Christ, so our companionship with the saints joins us to Christ, from Whom as from its Fountain and Head issues every grace and the very life of the people of God.(13*) It is supremely fitting, therefore, that we love those friends and coheirs of Jesus Christ, who are also our brothers and extraordinary benefactors, that we render due thanks to God for them (14*) and “suppliantly invoke them and have recourse to their prayers, their power and help in obtaining benefits from God through His Son, Jesus Christ, who is our Redeemer and Saviour.”(15*) For every genuine testimony of love shown by us to those in heaven, by its very nature tends toward and terminates in Christ who is the “crown of all saints,”(16*) and through Him, in God Who is wonderful in his saints and is magnified in them.(17*
Which are different points of view, you must admit -- one can't profess both at the same point in time.
That is absolutely correct. So, at least in my particular SBC church, this issue is never discussed. Philosophically, I am not bothered much with this because I have held both views at different times while being a member, and now in neither case do I think I was/am a "bad Baptist" in my SBC church. All Christians are at different stages in their respective walks with Christ.
“If God wanted all men to be saved, all men would be saved.”
If God’s highest value was for all men to be saved, all would be. However, if God prefers the willing obedience of sons, given in love, to the forced obedience of those without choice, then He will allow us to choose wrong as well as right. That isn’t a denial of his sovereignty, but an acceptance of it!
James White, a guy I’ve read a lot by and respect, argues that if Jesus died for all but all were not saved, then Jesus would have failed in his goal. However, again, if God’s goal is willing servants and sons, then it would be entirely appropriate for God to die for all, knowing that many would refuse His offer of salvation. It is GOD’s goal that is of interest, not ours.
“Men are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness, according to the will of God.”
Incorrect. I’ve been saved, but I certainly couldn’t call myself a “slave of righteousness”. If so, I’m a mighty poor slave at times!
What does scripture say?
“12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.” - Romans 6
Paul is encouraging us to...what? “Present yourselves to God”. We are involved, and Paul wants us to choose right.
To cite the passage you allude to:
“17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.”
Note, this is an analogy - Paul says “I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations”. He then tells us to do something: “For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.”
Just as our choices were once to let our deeds reveal our hearts of stone, let us now do deeds that reveal a heart of flesh. Let us give obedience, not from fear, but willingly...”Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?”
Paul argues for us to make a choice...to give ourselves to obedience which leads to righteousness. However, he does NOT say, “You are slaves, so God will make you obey”.
In Galatians, he writes, “13For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another. 16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.”
Why would he warn us not to “use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh”, unless it were possible? And while I cannot speak for others, in my own life, I find it all too easy to do exactly that. But instead, Paul tells us to “walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.” If we had no choice, Paul would have no reason to write. These are words written to people who have a choice, and whose choices have consequences.
Romans 8:28 is followed by Romans 8:29 “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
Notice, he doesn’t say, those God predestined, he called. Paul writes, “those whom he foreknew he also predestined”...so foreknowing is different from predestination. Predestination refers to the goal of the saved - to be conformed to the image of his Son. And these are the ones whom God called, and justified, and glorified.
“As for free will and predestination both being true, I find that an enormous and silly cop-out.”
Please do not take offense, but if I have to choose between your judgment, and the judgment of John MacArthur & J Vernon McGee, I’ll go with the latter two. I personally am more in the free will camp than the predestination camp, which I believe mistakes the goal for the method of getting there...but I respect the men I quoted enough to grant that this retired Electronic Warfare Officer MAY be oversimplifying things.
Of course all men are called to repent and believe. None is without excuse.
Does God give new ears to hear the truth of the Gospel to all men?
Does God give new eyes to all men to see the world from a spiritual perspective and know of the salvation won by Christ on the cross?
Does God give all men a new heart of flesh in exhange for their heart of stone so He can fill that heart with Christ?
Does God renew the minds of all men to receive the grace of God?
No, He doesn't.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved" -- Ephesians 1:4-6 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" -- John 17:9,20"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Yeah ... it's amazing. Some guy called me a jerk in FREEPMAIL ... Couldn't stand disagreement, apparently.
Lol. Your tag tells us all we need to know about your definitions of prayer and worship.
You sound quite certain of your assumptions.
Not so sure. The other day several Roman Catholics were defining "separated brethren" as the EO and a few high Anglicans and maybe a few Lutherans.
For the rest of us, especially those who believe we have been saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, we are still anathematized (cursed to hell) by Rome, and unless we accept the church of Rome's teachings (either before or even after we die) we are hell-bound.
With your freepname . . .
some might imagine that “jerk” was an upgrade or a compliment.
I can't read folks' minds ... not even in private messaging. Only their words. If I have misunderstood their words, perhaps they would be so kind as to explain themselves more thoroughly.
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAH.
Did um widdow feewings dit a bwuise?
I've given you Scripture that says we are to pray to God alone. Where is the Scripture to defend your position? (Preferably in Enlish, but if you can find some supporting Scripture in Pig Latin, go for it.)
“We are still looking around the Bible for that evasive little beast called “free will”. Was it last seen in II Hesitations?”
“5And he brought [Abram] outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.”
Odd. Abram believed, and it was counted to him as righteousness...not he was counted righteous, and then he believed.
“16”For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
Odd. It doesn’t say, “16”For God so loved the elect, that he gave his only Son, that whoever He calls will believe in him and have eternal life.”
It says God loved the WORLD, that whoever [”Whatever person or persons: Whoever comes will be welcomed”] believes.
This presents a choice, unless God is a liar.
Ezekial 33: “11Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
12 “And you, son of man, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him when he transgresses, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall by it when he turns from his wickedness, and the righteous shall not be able to live by his righteousness when he sins. 13Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and does injustice, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered, but in his injustice that he has done he shall die. 14Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ yet if he turns from his sin and does what is just and right, 15if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, not doing injustice, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he shall surely live.”
What did God say? “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?”
Is he a liar? Or did he give the people a choice?
Ephesians 4: “1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”
Paul is URGING us to walk in a manner worthy of the calling...why? Why does he urge us to do what we cannot help but do? Or maybe we DO have to make choices in obeying God...
Later in that chapter he writes, “20But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.”
Again, he is urging us to put off our old self, and be renewed. This work is not apart from God, and it is God’s will, but Paul is telling us to do it. As he says in Colossians 1, “For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.”
These are choices. Choices we make, or reject. And he is writing to Christians, so we still have choices to make.
And please note, not a single scripture quoted came from 2 Hesitations. Is that in the Apocrypha, DB?
NO ... “jerk” is definitely a downgrade from “predatory bird with extreme beliefs of personal superiority”.
Scripture you quoted says: "Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." -- Phil. 4:6
Nope, the word alone is not there.
Ephesians 1:
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.”
Now, according to scripture, when Paul wrote “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world”, what was the choice God was making? Well, it was “that we should be holy and blameless before him.”
I do not deny that those who believe are chosen - predestined - to be conformed to the image of His son, and made holy and blameless before him. What I deny is what these verses do not teach - that God chose us individually for salvation.
The question would be, “Did he predestine us as individuals, or did he predestine those who believe?” And since we are repeatedly told that faith and belief make the difference, I interpret it the latter way.
Very busy afternoon, here. But I will dash this off and then return to more fully explain.
Please notice...you did not address free will. You addressed "choosing". If God manages your choices the way He described through Solomon (The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes, Prov. 21:1) then it is "free will" that is in question, not choosing.
Free will is defined (universally, I believe) as the ability to select among a group of options with no outside influence exerted upon the man. Correct? More later.
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