Posted on 12/26/2009 6:09:29 AM PST by markomalley
Kinda challenged I see in providing definitive information eh. So some adaptation of jewish names are present in some locations. Guess what - that is the same world wide. Does that put JoA and Jesus there in the first century - hardly since that is based upon myth (as are the sources of these names)
It held in England because that's where Jesus and Joseph went.
Because of Pax Roma, serious study of history would serve to correct many of these misconceptions.
The preparations started much before that. What about His trip to Jerusalem when He was a child. When He spoke to the Rabbis He wasn't teaching?
Ever heard of the term Bar Mitzvah? A child declared out of wedlock generally had to prove himself separately to the scribes and elders. He was discussing scripture - not tin mining practices in England.
No, there are Welsh sources long before that you apparently aren't aware of. Of course I'm sure they're just lies and forgeries.
Provide citations, authors, titles when written - but then you still have that Tertullian reference misplaced too.
Since you mentioned me, but failed to ping me after making a snarky comment about me, I’ll make a point here. I’m sure MarkBsnr understands the contrast in the reliability of these so called historical documents. But then to accept JoA myth is to accept the Holy Grail (first appeared in middle ages associated with JoA) and the whole Arthurian mythology (with wizards, boys changing into animals, etc) as facts.
Thank you for the ping. The Arthurian / Holy Grail legends are neat, are wonderful, are mythic and are complete false. Jesus tells us that His mission is to the Jews; Him wandering the world like a Jewish Magellan is not documented and therefore we cannot accept it. Let’s face it; Britain was a loser of a territory; the people were few, poor, illiterate, had no skills, there was not at the time a lot of natural resources that could be used. It wasn’t until Henry Tudor that England started up the road to civilization. The only fascination with England in America is that England speaks English (in a fascinating accent to most Americans) and therefore they don’t have to translate from the Romanian or Finnish or Polish or even Serbian. It ain’t so. And there is no evidence that it was.
A fascination that has reached a cultic level.
Tin mines, anyone?
To postulate that Joseph of Arimathea, given that there is no documented evidence, is his uncle (or granduncle) and led him there on on some sort of mission, is silly on the surface, and simply not documented when one looks at it. Jesus didn't go to Britain; he hung out on the eastern end of the Med with the rabble rousers known as Jews. Which Pilate detested and was eventually convicted of excessive violence against them and exiled to Gaul.Matthew 10: 5 Jesus sent out these twelve 4 after instructing them thus, "Do not go into pagan territory or enter a Samaritan town. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 15: 24 10 He said in reply, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Where were they?
It was the Apostles and the disciples that were sent to the world. Therefore, Jesus heading out on a mission before Scripture caught up with Him to Britain or anywhere else is ludicrous.
So when Jesus gave his open-air sermons, who was in charge of clearing out the gentiles from the crowd? Peter was good with a knife, was it him?
OK, you say I can't cite anyone from the middle ages on, you say you have "real" historians, do they all predate the middle ages?
Wow another incredible nonbiblical leap of the imagination. You've already been given indications on Jesus' background and why his ministry didn't begin until he was 30.
What about the incident with the rabbis when He was 12?
The bible indicates that His ministry was directed to the Jews first, not the jews second.
The tin miners were Jews.
Finally, Jesus said it would be the Holy Spirit that prepared the way for the gospel, not his visitation to England.
You don't believe in the Trinity?
Bzzzt, you are missing on all cylinders today. Once again, Jesus' ministry was constrained by his mission to the Jews in Israel. If he had to go FIRST to all the other enclaves of Jews to prep them, why only to GB?
Wherever Joseph had operations is where they went. I'm sure it was all over. Britain was the only one not wholly controlled by the Romans.
Oh, yes, that anglo-israeli colored glasses again. FYI, the term 'gentile' was used of all non-jewish people - not just the romans.
Rome was one of the first stops on the gentile list.
In some cases, yes (and of course NEVER check the definitions of your word use)
Amazing how everything you believe is "real", and everything that says otherwise is lies and forgeries.
The don't make that claim today do they. Catholicism of the middle ages was far from being pristine and pure, but was corrupted by various leaders vying for power. (and of course, apart for Pisa - which council - there were at least two) It is not surprising that the myth of JoA "appears" in this time frame out of thin air.
Now wait a minute, you said that the further out from the resurrection, the less reliable, so how could they be right today and wrong in 1409?
Since you have failed completely to provide one single extant piece of physical documentation confirming the JoA myth - except vague reference to the myth itself - such a list would not be beneficial - since you wouldn't refer to it anyway.
Strangers tax, Nathanael, ...
Do some historical research on pilgrimages of the middle ages and the funds paid to reduce one's time in purgatory, and the cut that went to Rome. Lutherism began in part due that corruption.
And your "real" historians are immune to this, I guess. Who are your "real" historians and when did they live?
So far you have provided ZERO citation from any age. Care to try?
What about the incident with the rabbis when He was 12?
What about it - I already covered that in a previous post.
Rome was one of the first stops on the gentile list.
Haven't studied the travels of the Apostle Paul as described in Acts have you?
Amazing how everything you believe is "real", and everything that says otherwise is lies and forgeries.
Everything I've said is backed up by tangible scholarship. That is a big difference from relying upon fairy tales ORIGINATING in the middle ages.
You don't believe in the Trinity?
And what does the Holy Spirit work in the spreading of the Gospel have to do with my belief in the Trinity.
Now wait a minute, you said that the further out from the resurrection, the less reliable, so how could they be right today and wrong in 1409?
Already provided background on the middle ages - go back and read it.
Strangers tax. . .
Exodus 30:13 "This is what everyone who is numbered (Israelites) shall give: half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary (the shekel is twenty gerahs), half a shekel as a contribution to the LORD"
Poll tax is the biblical term - imposed by Romans upon all. Swing and a miss once again PG
And your "real" historians are immune to this, I guess. Who are your "real" historians and when did they live?
Throughout history and today, those who show that the mythology around JoA is a fanciful tail, void of any truth or facts.
So far you have provided ZERO citation from any age. Care to try?
What about the incident with the rabbis when He was 12?
What about it - I already covered that in a previous post.
Rome was one of the first stops on the gentile list.
Haven't studied the travels of the Apostle Paul as described in Acts have you?
Amazing how everything you believe is "real", and everything that says otherwise is lies and forgeries.
Everything I've said is backed up by tangible scholarship. That is a big difference from relying upon fairy tales ORIGINATING in the middle ages.
You don't believe in the Trinity?
And what does the Holy Spirit work in the spreading of the Gospel have to do with my belief in the Trinity.
Now wait a minute, you said that the further out from the resurrection, the less reliable, so how could they be right today and wrong in 1409?
Already provided background on the middle ages - go back and read it.
Strangers tax. . .
Exodus 30:13 "This is what everyone who is numbered (Israelites) shall give: half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary (the shekel is twenty gerahs), half a shekel as a contribution to the LORD"
Poll tax is the biblical term - imposed by Romans upon all. Swing and a miss once again PG
And your "real" historians are immune to this, I guess. Who are your "real" historians and when did they live?
Throughout history and today, those who show that the mythology around JoA is a fanciful tail, void of any truth or facts.
Jesus said something about... fox’s have dens but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head...doesn’t sound wealthy to me.
A quick look at "Hebrides" shows it was contempory of the times.
Because of Pax Roma, serious study of history would serve to correct many of these misconceptions.
The Romans were spreading Christianity in the first century to a land not even conquered yet?
Ever heard of the term Bar Mitzvah? A child declared out of wedlock generally had to prove himself separately to the scribes and elders. He was discussing scripture - not tin mining practices in England.
You've spent this whole thread saying Jesus never ministered before the age of 30, and now you admit He did?
Provide citations, authors, titles when written - but then you still have that Tertullian reference misplaced too.
500s Welsh.
All I said was India and Tibet were your topics, not mine.
That's what they said about Nazareth too.
I know, history can be rough for some. Rome conquered England in AD 47 there abouts.
You've spent this whole thread saying Jesus never ministered before the age of 30, and now you admit He did?
BIG difference between Q and A between Jesus and the scribes and priests regarding his understanding of the scripture.
500s Welsh.
Inadequate - teachers would give you an "F" for improper citation of references - try again
It is common politeness here at FR is if you mention another poster to ping them to that same post as well.
It is common politeness here at FR is if you mention another poster to ping them to that same post as well.
Jewish Talmud, papal Councils.
What about it - I already covered that in a previous post.
Was He ministering?
Haven't studied the travels of the Apostle Paul as described in Acts have you?
"One" of the first stops if you would look closer.
Everything I've said is backed up by tangible scholarship. That is a big difference from relying upon fairy tales ORIGINATING in the middle ages.
Who are they and did they predate the middle ages?
And what does the Holy Spirit work in the spreading of the Gospel have to do with my belief in the Trinity.
You don't believe people can be touched by the Holy Spirit?
Already provided background on the middle ages - go back and read it.
A non-answer.
Exodus 30:13 "This is what everyone who is numbered (Israelites) shall give: half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary (the shekel is twenty gerahs), half a shekel as a contribution to the LORD" Poll tax is the biblical term - imposed by Romans upon all. Swing and a miss once again PG
Jesus said the children of Israel didn't have to pay the tax He was talking about. It was a stranger's tax. He was considered a stranger in Capernaum. You take off for 18 years and everyone thinks you're a stranger.
Throughout history and today, those who show that the mythology around JoA is a fanciful tail, void of any truth or facts.
Names and dates please.
It's also common politeness not to falsely attribute in an underhanded way.
The first century goes from 1 to 100. Joseph returned in 37. 37 comes before 47.
You've spent this whole thread saying Jesus never ministered before the age of 30, and now you admit He did? BIG difference between Q and A between Jesus and the scribes and priests regarding his understanding of the scripture.
The bible says the people were astonished at Jesus' answers. You don't believe Jesus learned everything He knew from the rabbis at the temple do you?
Inadequate - teachers would give you an "F" for improper citation of references - try again
You first...dates and names please.
The first century goes from 1 to 100. Joseph returned in 37. 37 comes before 47.
BIG difference between Q and A between Jesus and the scribes and priests regarding his understanding of the scripture.
The bible says the people were astonished at Jesus' answers. You don't believe Jesus learned everything He knew from the rabbis at the temple do you?
Inadequate - teachers would give you an "F" for improper citation of references - try again
You first...dates and names please.
When were the tin mines opened and who operated them?
Surely you are not postulating that the lost sheep of Israel were in Britain?
***So when Jesus gave his open-air sermons, who was in charge of clearing out the gentiles from the crowd? Peter was good with a knife, was it him?***
How many gentiles were in a crowd of Jews in Judea?
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