Posted on 10/26/2009 3:22:02 PM PDT by NYer
That is where we will always disagree. What does Henry XVIII have to do with Hooker, Andrews, Taylor, Donne, Herbert, Laud? Nothing.
Very good. Who founded each Church and when?
“I’d just sort of always figured that this sort of thing - wanting to have sex with sisters - was more of a modern perversion.”
Study Roman history. At least one famous (infamous?) emperor did so and it was pretty near obligatory for the pharoahic crowd. Seems most of us have gotten past those ancient vices. Then there is Woody Allen. Ugh. Sorry.
As Henry predeceased all these fellows by a bit, it would have been difficult for him to have much of anything to do with them.
But what do THEY have to do with Henry?
For some of these, much, as it turns out. For others, less, but still something. They developed the beliefs and theology that they did because of the path that Henry set. The COFE was neither completely Catholic nor completely Protestant. This is in large part because Henry wasn't a Reformer, just a schismatic.
Let's look at Rev. Hooker, as an example. Here's a blurb from wiki that I think isn't especially unjust to him:
“Hooker's emphases on reason, tolerance and the value of tradition considerably influenced the development of Anglicanism.”
Sorry, but emphasis especially on reason and the value of tradition are Catholic values. Just wouldn't have happened if Henry had created a Protestant COFE.
I believe that Archbishop Laud was big on various High Church ideas, including Apostolic Succession. Hmmm... I wonder where that came from... the Catholic inheritance of Anglicanism... or the Reformation influence...
Bishop Andrewes, not so much. From what I can tell, he was a thorough-going Protestant. Not Henry's type of guy at all.
Nonetheless, a fellow like Bishop Andrewes would have never been ANYTHING in the Church IN England, which Henry abrogated. It was only after being severed from the Catholic Church that such a fellow as this could have had a career in the clergy in Great Britain.
Even if you were willing to deny the truth that Henry had a significant interest and knowledge in theology, ecclesiology, etc., and that he was active in these arenas, it is beyond dispute that he setup the COFE, and it was within the parameters that he initially created the COFE developed, both in terms of theology and ecclesiology. Others, too, had roles in creating the history of the COFE in both regards. Edward (or perhaps more accurately, his regents) partially Protestantized the COFE. Mary did what she thought she could to reverse that. Elizabeth struck the compromise that permitted her father's Catholicism and her brother's Protestantism to exist, in some form, side-by-side within the COFE.
Each played a significant role in the creation and development of the COFE. The folks who came after guided their theological watercraft between the banks established first by Henry and then by those that succeeded him.
sitetest
LOL!
I guess this is further evidence of the West's slide back to paganism.
I guess I'm a stick-in-the-mud, old-fashioned, rigid Catholic.
I mean, heck, I'm a pretty normal guy and have to deal with the temptations of lust like most other pretty normal guys.
But sisters? Especially in long-term relationships with both of them?? No thanks. Too weird for me.
sitetest
Imagine having to rule a country while married to a sister.
They were all founded at the same time, being Christian.
All of them claim the legitimacy of the Lords intent, and some of them are correct, if not all.
Some of them haven’t always lived up to the intent of their founding at every point in their existence. Some of them couldn’t separate politics and religion - some in the past, some in the present.
TS Eliot would disagree with you. It's seems likely that the sermons of Andrewes influenced Eliot to convert from his Unitarian upbringing to the Church of England. Eliot, most definitely Anglo-Catholic, considered Andrewes' prose to be the best in English letters.
But no there's no problem really. It's takes maybe 5 to 10 years to understand what the Anglo-Catholic ethos is.
“They were all founded at the same time, being Christian.”
Interesting. Hard to justify based on historical records. For example, Luther had some role in founding the Lutheran community, no?
“Hard to justify based on historical records.”
I won’t argue the finer points of salvation with you - it’s not up to us.
Different flavors of Christianity exist for a variety of reasons, no faithful member of one is any better than another.
If I’m wrong about that, I don’t think it’ll be held against me compared to other things in this world. If someone wants to claim something else, that is up to them.
Thank you. I really do appreciate any attempt at humour on here on this forum.
Yours was one of the best.
trisham
Four different Churches, believing different things, all founded at the SAME time? You have no trouble asserting that claim?
My apologies. Correction:
Thank you. I really do appreciate any attempt at humour on this forum.
Yours was one of the best.
trisham
“Four different Churches, believing different things, all founded at the SAME time? You have no trouble asserting that claim?”
Absolutely no trouble at all. If you wish to assert otherwise, you must assert that others are not Christian. I know that’s no problem for many folks, but I’m not willing to go there.
Do you assert they are all equal?
Ah, see, that's just what I'm talking about. It is HENRY'S little ecclesial community that makes an Anglo-Catholic like someone like Andrewes, who preached against “Romanism” and warmly treated the likes of Calvin!
You should say, “Thank you,” to old Henry as you say your prayers tonight.
“It's takes maybe 5 to 10 years to understand what the Anglo-Catholic ethos is.”
Not sure anyone has the time to start anymore. There might not be much of Anglo-Catholicism left in the Church OF England or any of the Anglican Communion in another ten years.
sitetest
Things moving far faster than I had imagined on this. Never thought I’d live to see the communion of the church... We’re not there yet, but this is certainly surprising. As a lifelong Catholic, I’m still trying to wrap my mind around this...
As I said, it takes a long time to understand the Anglo-Catholic ethos.
“Do you assert they are all equal?”
Equal in what way? Assets in the bank? Number of members?
If one asserts that every soul is equal in Gods eyes, maybe one could extrapolate to that conclusion.
Do you assert that one is more equal than another?
The first part of your statement is conjecture and assumes a great many things. The second part of your statement is factually inaccurate.
We'll see when the Apostolic Constitution is promulgated and when an actual ordinariate is established how the question of orders will be handled. It may not be the same in every case.
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