Can Non-Catholics Be Saved?

Inside Catholic ^ | October 24, 2009 | Mark Shea

[Mr Rogers]

What Saint Paul said of him:

“May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains, but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me earnestly and found me— may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day!—and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.”

Now, we know Timothy was close to Onesiphorus’s household, for Paul later writes, “Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.”

So it was natural for Paul to write to Timothy, “May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus”. After all, Timothy knew them and was close enough by to pass on Paul’s words and his regard.

For the rest, all we know is “he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains, but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me earnestly and found me— may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day!—and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.”

So he is not with Paul now, but has at some point traveled from his household to Paul. One POSSIBLE explanation is that he is died before he could return. ANOTHER is that he is traveling - maybe home, maybe elsewhere - and therefor is no longer with Paul.

Nor does praying for the dead, if it is done, imply Purgatory. None of us know the state of one’s soul at death. Shoot, for all I can prove, Teddy Kennedy might have repented in his final moments! And while I see no evidence God is outside time, I do believe He knows the future as certainly as He knows the past...so if I pray for someone who died, He knew about that prayer before the person died.

I’ve prayed for my parents, both of whom are dead. I do not pray for conversion AFTER death, for even Catholics deny that is possible. I do pray that they converted BEFORE death. My Dad died 10 months in to a tour in Vietnam - how do I know what his spiritual state was the day he died? My Mom slipped into senility. There was a time in her life when she was hostile to the Gospel, but she seemed to accept it as death drew near. But how can I know?

So I feel free to pray for their souls, although I have ZERO belief in Purgatory, and equally none in conversion after death.

Maybe Onesiphorus died, and Paul continued to pray for his friend the way I do for my parents. Maybe Onesiphorus was traveling, and Paul prayed for him, knowing the dangers of travel. But there is no reason to believe in Purgatory from those verses.

If Paul believed in Purgatory, he had ample opportunity to discuss it. Right after exhorting Christians to live pure lives would have been a great time...as in “if you do not, you will burn in Purgatory until God decided you have been punished enough for your sin” - a statement that in itself is so utterly contrary to Christianity as to take one’s breath away!

[wagglebee]

If he were dead at the time, the “household” would not have been called “the household of Onesiphorus.” He was probably absent (see on 2 Timothy 1:16).

Although this DOES NOT address the fact that Saint Paul only refers to him in the past tense.

By absent do you mean not in a Roman jail with Saint Paul or is that another "Roman invention" you dismiss?

[Scythian]

Ya, but was he speaking Ex-Cathedra /sarcasm ...

[Scythian]

Paul meets a new group of entrants into heaven and the gate and begins to give them a tour, as he nears a certain group of souls he whispers “Shhhhh, these are the Catholics, they think they are the only ones up here ...”

[Uri’el-2012]

By absent do you mean not in a Roman jail with Saint Paul or is that another "Roman invention" you dismiss?

Perhaps you are confused by the many fables about
Onesiphorus in the Roman catholic APOCRYPHA OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Uri’el-2012]

U-2012> What they were reading in the first century was the Holy Word of G-d. The Tanach,
Yah'shua preached from Deuteronomy and Isaiah and ....

Paul and Peter and Jude and James all preached from the Tanach !

I NEVER said that the Old Testament didn't exist in the first century, I said the NEW TESTAMENT. Your original statement was that you didn't consider anything after Revelation, this DID NOT exist for first century Christians.

U-2012> You are right that the Roman "church" rejected the Holy Word of G-d: the Tanach and Yah'shua the Jewish Messiah and soon returning King, the living Word of G-d.

By "Roman Church" you of course mean what the rest of the world considers CHRISTIANITY because in addition to Catholics nearly all Protestants also know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, something which you reject

Perhaps, YOU should make clear to the readers that when you reject the "Roman Church" you also reject the beliefs of hundreds of millions of Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, Methodists and Baptists.

The writings of Matthew, Mark(Peter) and Luke, John and Paul
existed for the first century followers of the Jewish Messiah.

No discussion of the "Trinity" would be complete without the words
of the Jewish Messiah Himself as recalled by Peter and written
by his amanuensis, Mark:

NAsbU Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

KJV Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

NIV Mark 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

NAU Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

TNK Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.

BHT Deuteronomy 6:4 šüma` yiSrä´ël yhwh(´ädönäy) ´élöhêºnû yhwh(´ädönäy) ´eHäd

Yah'shua stated that there is only one G-d.

He also stated the If you see me you have seen the Father

Also The Father and I are one.

NAsbU John 14:9 ..... He who has seen Me has seen the Father...

NAsbU John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Petronski]

Jesus Christ stated that there is only one God.

A fact which does nothing to negate the Holy Trinity, God in three persons.

[Petronski]

...Catholic APOCRYPHA OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

You reject which books of the New Testament?

[Poe White Trash]

LOL!

[wagglebee]

Perhaps you are confused by the many fables about Onesiphorus in the Roman catholic APOCRYPHA OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

I'm confused?

Let's see, the Catholic Church DOES NOT consider the Deutero-Canonical to be the "Apocrypha" and NONE of the Deutero-Canonical books are in the New Testament. So, I have no idea what you are referring to.

[wagglebee]

The writings of Matthew, Mark(Peter) and Luke, John and Paul existed for the first century followers of the Jewish Messiah.

Except NOBODY has EVER suggested that they were compiled into canon. What about the writings that were rejected from canon?

What is it with your belief that only Catholics adhere to the Trinity?

Do you fear that your other anti-Catholic allies would abandon you if they realized that you also reject their beliefs? I wouldn't worry about it so much, they really aren't intelligent enough to see past their own bigotry to discover your true beliefs.

[Uri’el-2012]

U-2012>Perhaps you are confused by the many fables about
Onesiphorus in the Roman catholic APOCRYPHA OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

I'm confused?

Let's see, the Catholic Church DOES NOT consider the Deutero-Canonical to be the "Apocrypha" and NONE of the Deutero-Canonical books are in the New Testament. So, I have no idea what you are referring to.

Specifically "ACTS OF PAUL AND THECLA"

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Petronski]

I can only interpret his words as a claim that some book or books of the New Testament are somehow apocryphal or otherwise not genuine Scripture.

The deeper one digs into some of these cults, the more bizarre their exorbitant delicacies become.

I think we’re through the looking glass on this one, though.

[wagglebee]

Specifically "ACTS OF PAUL AND THECLA"

And these are found in WHICH Catholic translation of the New Testament?

[wagglebee]

The answer appears in post 452.

[Petronski]

Amazing.

At least we’re not looking at a rejection of any of the books of the New Testament...cold comfort in the face of all the rest of his . . . artful emanations.

[Uri’el-2012]

U-2012>Specifically "ACTS OF PAUL AND THECLA"

And these are found in WHICH Catholic translation of the New Testament?

Apocrypha |əˈpäkrəfə|
plural noun [treated as sing. or pl. ]
biblical or related writings not forming part of the accepted canon of Scripture

e.g.
THE PROTEVANGELIUM OF JAMES
THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS
THE BOOK OF JOHN CONCERNING THE FALLING ASLEEP OF MARY
etc.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Mad Dawg]

I think careful thought on 2 Pet 3:8 supports (not “proves”) an eternal (out of time) God.

[wagglebee]

Apocrypha |əˈpäkrəfə|
plural noun [treated as sing. or pl. ]
biblical or related writings not forming part of the accepted canon of Scripture

e.g.
THE PROTEVANGELIUM OF JAMES
THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS
THE BOOK OF JOHN CONCERNING THE FALLING ASLEEP OF MARY
etc.

Yes, I am well aware of the definition of Apocrypha. But you have in NO WAY answered my question. Which portions of the New Testament of a Catholic translation of the Holy Bible do you consider apocryphal? Please be specific.

[Mad Dawg]

In other words in NO Catholic translation of the New Testament.