Tell it to the Rev. Dr. John Polkinghorne....
Posted on 09/28/2009 9:40:25 AM PDT by betty boop
Tell it to the Rev. Dr. John Polkinghorne....
It's great to see you — been fishing lately?
I often have trouble immersing myself in literature of ‘olden times’ because it is hard for me to realize how different life was back then (pick a time).
I wasn’t speaking of you in particular. It seems that the author and many others like to label people as atheist, deist, pantheist, etc. I’ve never understood the importance of it, other than to discern ‘sides’ in these types of discussions.
I understand the money part, but I think it leaves too much chance for stereotyping people and generalizing their beliefs. I agree that they can go too far.
I too, as it seems too easy to de-individualize people who have lived in very different times and circumstances.
True enough; and people have an unfortunate tendency to do just that (FR being a place where it is all too rampant, unfortunately).
Still, I think you go too far if, as it seems from your comments, you believe that labels are "bad" in and of themselves. To know that somebody is an "X" or a "Y" can be quite helpful as a means of establishing a relationship with them.
The mischief comes when you use the label as an end point in the relationship.
I agree with the end-point thing.
Home run.
Even if in the end we don’t agree with everything Spinoza writes, or even any of it, its fascinating to watch someone try to get his arms around some of the same issues we may be trying to understand ourselves. If in the end I see him heading off in a direction I’m not going, its still gain for me.
As for Einstein, its hard not to love the guy.
Sometimes people make the mistake of trying to understand just so much of someone’s philosophy so as to be able to dismiss it, and him. Rather, it should be approached like a conversation over late night tea. That always seems to be your approach.
Really good job.
bookmark for later
But stuartcr, I am the author. Did you really see me "labeling" anyone? If so, please show me where — I tried so very hard not to do that very thing!
I feel just the same way, marron — on both scores!
I am hardly a huge fan of philosophical "system builders." But it's fascinating to watch them at work.
I hope stuartcr will forgive me for seeming to "label" Spinoza in this last remark. On the other hand, "system building" does seems a useful description of what he's doing in the Ethics.
Or so it seems to me. FWIW
Plus I just love those conversations "over late night tea!"
Thank you so very much for your observations and kind words!
Yes...and an amazing intellect who, I think, tried to be honest. I had heard, though, that he couldn't tie his own shoes and that he didn't speak until he was 4 years old.
To me, it looked like both Spinoza and Einstein were associated with an ism of some kind. Maybe it was just me.
Einstein has the reputation of a scrupulously honest man, testified to by friends and colleagues alike. But it's possible that those who really knew and loved him understood and responded to, first of all, his personal grace and humility. And were probably delighted by his wry sense of humor....
His family was worried about him, right from birth: The newborn had the most over-sized, seemingly misshapen head! Then the babe said not a word until age two — and then, as a family member reports, only after carefully, silently, but with moving lips, rehearsing every word before finding them fit to actually articulate out loud.
At six, it is reported he had his first real "epiphany" in life: A compass was presented to his inspection. Einstein evidently was dumbstruck at the insight that this simple physical device could suggest so very much more about the larger world.
Also at age six, he began attending Catholic school.
At age 11, he was in the throes of a profound religious devotion, of Orthodox Jewish character. He kept Kosher; he attended synagogue; he followed the Law to a tee; he even composed poems and hymns to God, that he would sing, going from here to there....
At some point (not very long thereafter), all that came to a STOP. And evidently Einstein never looked back.
My own "theory" of this is: Einstein didn't have to look back; he'd seen enough to know that he could move forward in freedom, because he had a rock to stand on.
He didn't trouble himself about doctrinal details.
At least, that would be my story.
I think it was because he realised that no man can really know, it’s all just a matter of faith.
FWIW, I think that's a mistake of interpretation, stuartcr. For how does one really reduce spectacular genius to an "ism?"
Certainly, that was not the present author's intention.
OK, it’s just the way it looked to me, doesn’t mean that’s the way it really was.
Yes, exactly, stuartcr! Ultimately even to believe that reason itself is "reasonable" is an act of faith.
Which then looks for its support and surety in the most truthful source it can find....
Everything we think we know finally rests on a "cause" that cannot be proved by scientific test in principle. Yet without such a cause, there would be no universe, but only formlessness, chaos....
I should just put it in a nutshell this way: Even belief in the powers of the human mind is an act of faith. But, oh, how we do rely on those powers just to get through the day — not to mention, to build a free and just society.
But now I guess I'm really going off-track here. Best to wrap up.
Thank you so very much, stuartcr, for sharing your well-considered (and methinks most insightful) thoughts in these matters!
The Word, Alpha to Omega.
I just think he stumbled by embracing physical causality as an axiom.
He even contradicted himself trying to keep it as an axiom (strong determinism v free will.)
Thank you so much for all of your insights and encouragements, dearest sister in Christ!
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