No Salvation Outside the Church

Catholic Answers ^ | 12/05 | Fr. Ray Ryland

[papertyger]

Maybe protestants aren't the ones who are interpreting it wrong.

Why would protestants "interpret" if Jesus says what he means and means what he says? He said "this is my body...do this...." What's to interpret?

[Semper Mark]

Once again, thank you for your reply.

I'm in no position to correct you my FRiend, and that was not my intent.

You have answered my previous question, but may I impose for just one more...

Who do YOU say that Christ is...meaning, who is He...to YOU?

[papertyger]

If you're in a situation where Christ isn't being taught, praised, or glorified, then get out!

Wait a minute. So all those churches that deny the body and blood of Christ are false?

[papertyger]

A Christian's "one, singular teaching authority" is the holy Bible.

And you know that, how?

[bdeaner]

REACTIVE ATTACHMENT DISORDER

With all due respect, I have a doctorate in clinical psychology and reactive attachment disorder is not really an official diagnostic category in the DSM-IV-R. It's really a theory about what causes a variety of disorders, but not a DSM diagnosis in itself.

With that said, there is some validity to the construct of attachment disorders, I believe, and they tend to be linked to personality disorders, i.e. borderline personality disorder. However, having a particular attachment style does not, by a long shot, predict with certainty whether a person will develop any diagnostic condition, let alone any particular diagnosis. It actually accounts for a relatively small amount of the variance when predicting the development of psychopathology.

Interestingly, research is showing that the higher a person's religiosity (the strength of their religious beliefs and frequency of their practice) the more likely the person is to have a SECURE attachment style. Low religiosity is linked to INSECURE attachment styles, generally. Images of a LOVING God are especially linked to secure styles of attachment.

[Semper Mark]

“Wait a minute.”

Why wait one second?

What churches deny the blood of Christ?

If they deny the blood of Christ, then how can they be called a Church?

[bdeaner]

If they deny the blood of Christ, then how can they be called a Church?



Amen to that, Brother.

[papertyger]

Perhaps you mean "taking 'born again' spiritually," not literally. No one relives childbirth, thank God.

"Born again" is not a repetition of "born." It's its own term.

Where does scripture tell you to interpret "this is my body?"

[papertyger]

P.S.

Where does scripture say to interpret scripture by scripture?

[bdeaner]

Who do YOU say that Christ is...meaning, who is He...to YOU?

He is the Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

[papertyger]

Isn't it strange how some RCs cannot bring themselves to admit even the tiniest flaw in Peter?

No stranger than how protestants deny the body and blood of Christ.

[Ottofire]

But bdeaner, Vatican II takes what is clear in Florence and ignores the fact that ALL outside the Catholic faith are thrown into hell, whether by no fault of their own or not.

I read what the Catechism says and then re-read the statement from Florence and they just do not jive.

Again Florence [with commentary added]:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, [who are pagans by choice? Or through no fault of their own?] but also Jews [again with Vat II these are only those who have heard the Gospel and rejected it] and heretics and schismatics [ditto] cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation [does this include separated brethren? I thought we have to be part of a church with apostolic tradition to have real sacraments???], and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, [How can one who rejected the gospel shed their blood for Christ, as you tell me the original language suggests???] unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. (Denzinger 714).

Again, this is one counsel saying one thing and then a later counsel saying something completely different. I cannot see any way to have them agree. This is quite clear that those Vatican II says are separated brethren unless they remain in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church and benefit from the sacraments of said church cannot be saved.

I would like to point out that according to the written word of the Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 1 and 3, all in the world are judged as unrighteous, and only those that have submitted to God’s will can be washed clean. Again, as Paul points out, the natural and carnal man cannot choose to do good in God’s eyes, and only the creation of a heart of flesh and a spiritual rebirth, which is caused by the Holy Spirit, not by the will of man, can cause someone to want the things of God.

This is where I think that Florence was nearly right, but had wandered from the clear teachings of Holy Scripture. Only the invisible church, those who are born from above, the ecclesia, will be saved. All outside this body is damned, all willfully enjoying the sin nature that Adam’s fall caused to be our birthright.

Of course, all I am basing this on is only the clear writings of the Old and New Testaments, who we agree were God-breathed.

[papertyger]

What churches deny the blood of Christ?

All that deny the "Real Presence" of Christ in the Eucharist.

[bdeaner]

Exactly. Churches (denominations) are comprised of fallible human beings. Catholic and protestant alike are run by fallible human beings.

We are all sinners, and no human being other than Our Lord and His Mother was without sin since the Fall. The Pope is also a sinner, just like the rest of us. We Catholics distinguish between the Pope's impeccability as a person -- they are ALL sinnes -- and his infallibility on doctrinal matters of the Church -- which has infallibility not by his own power, but by the protecting Holy Spirit, sent by Our Lord, which guides the Church's Magisterium to preserve and teach the Deposit of Faith in Scripture and Tradition. It is through the Holy Spirit that the Church Magisterium can be secured against hell ever prevailing against it, as Christ promised.

[Semper Mark]

He is the King of Kings, and Lord of Lord's, He is from everlasting to everlasting...He is God Almighty, The Creator!

Do you believe that Christ is God?
And that he died once for the sins of all?

And that there is no other that can impute righteousness to you and I, but He, through His redemptive death on the cross?

[Semper Mark]

“All that deny Christ the “Real Presence” of Christ in the Eucharist.”

In the what?

Where were you when Christ died on the cross papertyger?

[papertyger]

In the what?

Eucharist.

You know, communion wafer.

[Semper Mark]

“You know, communion wafer.”

Yeah, I know.

I suppose that He'll be checking your digestive tract for wafers at the gates to determain whether you're allowed in, or not,...HE meaning Christ Himself.

You didn't answer my question though...where were you when Christ died on the cross?

[papertyger]

I suppose that He'll be checking your digestive tract for wafers at the gates to determain whether you're allowed in, or not,...HE meaning Christ Himself.

Mocking the body and blood is a sure way to get me to ignore your other useless questions.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Where do you think the Bible came from?"

 

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

 

 

"We know it's God's Word because the Church said so"

 

Did the Catholic Church confer on the Scriptures any authority they did not already intrinsically have by virtue of their being produced by the Holy Spirit?

 

 

 

"and it had the teaching authority to make that declaration,"

 

Did John the Baptist have the authority to decided who was going to be the Messiah?