No Salvation Outside the Church

Catholic Answers ^ | 12/05 | Fr. Ray Ryland

[blue-duncan]

“At any rate, Paul thought that celibacy for the Catholic priesthood was a good thing”

That must be why he made it a requirement for Elders and Deacons in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.

[PugetSoundSoldier]

That must be why he made it a requirement for Elders and Deacons in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.

Hey now, you can't rely on the Bible to make your point! There's a catechism to consider! ;)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I was trying out your style of debate.

You left out the intelligence, appreciation of facts and logic, and interest in truth

I was trying out your style of debate but since your style of debate was devoid of intelligence, appreciation of facts and logic, and interest in truth, I stopped.

[papertyger]

Hey now, you can't rely on the Bible to make your point! There's a catechism to consider

Truer words were never spoken. Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way...

[redgolum]

Was afraid this was going to be another mega thread.

Self ping for later review.

[big'ol_freeper]

Nope, you're a Roman Catholic. In the common vernacular, a Roman Catholic is a Catholic who follows the Pope, rather than a Eastern Catholic who follows the Patriarch.

Hey NYer, I bet you will be interested to know that you follow a Patriarch and not the Pope.

Amazing how little these "experts" on the Catholic Church actually know about it.

[Petronski]

Your perseverance is so adorable.

But no, I don't want to flatter you with any more responses on that badly-beaten point.

[papertyger]

oh that the office of the Pope - with his ex cathedra claims - were so humble.

Well he IS the vicar of Christ, you know...

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The Reformation supported, as do most Protestant churches, the Nicene Creed. Just not Rome's screwy interpretation of it.

As far as the anti-Scriptural doctrine of "apostolic succession," here's everything you need to know...

APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION

CONCLUSION

1. The doctrine of apostolic succession...

a. Is without true scriptural basis

b. Was devised by false teachers, in an attempt to counter other false teachers

c. Has been used by many different churches, each asserting their own validity and authority

d. Yet has not prevented wholesale apostasy from God and His Word

2. The Lord's church mentioned in Mt 16:18...

a. Is built on the foundation of Christ and His apostles - Ep 2:19-22

b. Grows whenever people respond to the gospel as proclaimed by the apostles - Ac 2:38-41,47

c. Is manifested wherever people continue in apostolic doctrine, not traditions of men - Ac 2:42

d. Is preserved by the power of God and the all-sufficient, once for all revealed, Word of God - Ac 20:32; 2Ti 3:16-17; Jude 3

By remaining faithful to the incorruptible seed, the Word of God, and by His grace, we will receive that "inheritance among all those who are sanctified" (Ac 20:32)...

[bdeaner]

If any church or it's leaders were 100% right then Christ death was in vain.

The Catholic Church does not claim the impeccability of its members. We are all sinners, and all fall into error. The claim, rather, is that the Catholic Church was given a special blessing by the Lord to preserve and teach the Deposit of Faith infallibly through the Magisterium and in certain, specific circumstances, on matters of theology. It is this claim that allows anyone, really, to claim the infallibility of the Scriptures, since the Bible canon was authorized by the Church long before the Reformation.

God bless.

[papertyger]

a. Is without true scriptural basis

BWAHAHAHAHA!

[Petronski]

Wow!

Protestants don’t like the Pope.

And you cite more protestants to prove it.

SHOCKER!

[bdeaner]

Thanks

You're welcome! God bless.

[papertyger]

Wow! Protestants don't like the Pope. And you cite more protestants to prove it. SHOCKER!

It sounds much more reasonable if you have da spirit of troof.

[bdeaner]

The Catholic Church has done as much or more to protect and perpetuate the existence of Western culture over the centuries than any other institution.

Absolutely! Your statement cannot be denied, and is fully supported by the objective facts of history. And this is exactly what we would expect from the Church founded by the Lord and protected by the Holy Spirit.

First, there is the obvious massive influence of the Church on music, art and architecture. That goes without saying.

But, more suprisingly for a lot of people who have been fed anti-Church propaganda, is that virtually ALL historicans of science over the last fifty years--A.C. Crombie, David Lindberg, Edward Grant, Stanley Jaki, Thomas Goldstein, and J.L. Heilbron--have concluded that the Scientific Revolution was indebted to the Church.

And, of course, everone knows that the monks preserved the literary inheritance of the ancient world, not to mention literacy itself, in the aftermath of the fall of Rome.

The idea of international law was first developed in 16th century Spanish universities. A Catholic priest and professor, Francisco Vitoria, earned the title of father of international law. In fact, Western law itself is primarily a product of the Church. Canon law was the first modern legal system in Europe. Legal scholar Harold Berman has said it was "the church that first taught Western man what a moder legal system is like. The church first taught that conflicting customs, statutes, cases, and doctrines may be reconciled by analysis and synthesis."

The idea of formulated "rights" has its origin not in John Locke and Thomas Jefferson originally, but from teh canon law of the Church! Economics is another area where the Church contributed greatly, especially the late Scholastics of the 15th and 16th centuries in Spain. Etc. etc.

Western civilization, as we know it, would not be what it is without the Catholic Church.

[blue-duncan]

“2. The Lord’s church mentioned in Mt 16:18...”

You can add:

e. It has a congregational polity and discipline. Matt. 18:17, 1 Cor. 5:4-5.

f. Its worship and prayer is conducted by laity. 1 Cor. 14

g. Its elders and Deacons are family men. 1 Tim. 3, Titus 1.

h. It has 2 ordinances Communion and Baptism. 1 Cor. 11:20-26, Acts 19:4-5.

[driftdiver]

“But, more suprisingly for a lot of people who have been fed anti-Church propaganda,”

No need for propaganda, the truth is ugly enough. Catholics have an extremely violent history.

[bdeaner]

Catholics have an extremely violent history.

Human beings have a violent history! Look at the Old Testament! The United States has a violent history. I hope you are not ashamed of your country.

Catholicism has always been a civilizing force in history that has moved toward less violence and basic human rights for all people -- always moving in the direction of working against the forces of barbarism, and yes often, out of necessity, by using force. There is a time for war. If it wasn't for the crusades, let's face it, we would all be praising Allah today.

[driftdiver]

“Catholicism has always been a civilizing force in history that has moved toward less violence and basic human rights for all people”

Not rally, Catholicism has often led to incredible amounts of violence with and to Protestants. Burning or torturing someone is not a basic human right.

Your idea of necessary force is convert or die.

[bdeaner]

Not rally, Catholicism has often led to incredible amounts of violence with and to Protestants. Burning or torturing someone is not a basic human right.

Back then, everybody was burning and torturing each other! It was thanks to the Catholic Church that people don't do that stuff anymore. Think about it. Read some history from legitimate historians who are objective -- not biased on either a Protestant or Catholic perspective -- and you might be surprised. Bronxville, who posts a lot in the Religion Forum, just yesterday posted some great quotes from historians on the other thread, "How Old Is Your Church?" CHECK IT OUT HERE.

The concept of natural human rights has it's origin in the Catholic Church. Fr. Francisco de Vitoria, a Catholic priest, working with others to develop the New Laws of 1542 to improve treatment of natives in the New World, "defended the doctrine that all men are equally free; on the basis of natural liberty, they proclaimed their right to life, to culture and to property," according to historian Harold Berman.

Vitoria developed his argument from scripture and Church tradition, as well as through reason, that, having been created in God's image and endowed with a rational nature, man possesses a dignity that all other creatures lack. Thus he was able to assert, to the monarchy, that all men were entitled to a degree of treatment from his fellow human beings that no other creature could claim.

Vitoria was heavily influenced by St. Thomas Aquinas. Two concepts were especially key: (1) the divine law, which proceeds from grace, does not annul human law, which proceeds from natural reason; and (2) those things that are natural to man are neither to be taken from nor given to him on account of sin. In other words, the treatment to which ALL human beings were entitlted -- e.g., not to be killed, expropriated, etc. -- whether or not they are baptized, derives from their status AS MEN rather than as members of the faithful in a state of grace. Fr. Domingo de Sotta, who was Vitoria's colleague, put it like this: "Those who are in the grace of God are not a whit better off than the sinner or the pagan in what concerns natural rights."

That's just one example. I could go on and on.

But I think if you look around the world, or simply just right here in our country, you can see that the Catholics have been the consistent and reliable defenders of human rights and pro-life morality when others, including Protestants, were not.

I'll just give you one example -- many more where this one comes from. Consider Fuller Seminary's noterious "church grown" movement, which encouraged the segregation of their congregations. David Currie was there, and writes about this in his book, Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic. As he explains, "for almost a generation proponents of this movement have taught that mixing cultures and races inhibits the numerical growth of churches...I heard sermons in church advising against interethnic marriages. Some fundamentalist schools, such as Bob Jones University, even forbid interracial dating..." etc. In contrast, the Catholics have always encouraged interractial relations and intermarriage, because of the notion of natural human rights which became increasingly explicit in the doctrines of the Church over time, always going against the grain of the evils of the dominant cultures within which the Church operated, which tended usually to gravitate toward the denial of human rights, e.g. slavery in the U.S. Abortion today.

When I was an Evangelical, before I was in full communion with the Church, I found it very disturbing that some of the large Evangelical churches in the U.S. refused to take a stand against abortion. They were chicken, afriad of the controversy, afraid of losing members. But the Catholic Church has always, always, always been 100% pro-life, and has defended it even when they lost many Catholics as a result. Another example was the eugenics movement in the 20th century U.S., which was strongly opposed by the Catholic Church but supported by many Protestant churches, which were influenced by the money coming from the wealthy supporters of eugenics, such as Carnegie and Rockefeller. Think about how many Catholics left the Church over Humanae Vitae which was pro-life all the way, including against the use of contraception. Many left the Church, but the Church was undaunted, because the Church has always been unafraid to teach universal truths even when -- especially when -- they go counter to the age. If the Church hadn't done this over the centuries, we would not be where we are today as a civilization. That's just the honest to God truth, whether you're a Catholic or not; it's simply undeniable.