No Salvation Outside the Church

Catholic Answers ^ | 12/05 | Fr. Ray Ryland

[PugetSoundSoldier]

I would appreciate if you would show me a particular quotation or two that you object to, and why.

See this post, most recently.

I will answer your question about Baptists

THANK YOU!

first I need to know your objections, so I can answer the question with a mutual understanding of what we are talking about here. My interpretation of the article seems to be quite different than yours.

See my post 1406. But just try this statement:

The Baptist Church is "the single and exclusive channel by which the truth and grace of Christ enter our world of space and time"

Can you accept that statement?

[Quix]

Love your posts.

Thx.

[Marysecretary]

And where does it say you have to do it over and over again?

[PugetSoundSoldier]

If I may interject, why should he become Catholic?

[Iscool]

Ultimately they have nothing more than faith to rest upon; however, we are not granted the same foundation. Our faith is suspect because it is not their faith.

Over time, you will realize that whenever they speak of faith, or the Catholic faith, it is never faith in Jesus Christ...It is faith in their religion...

[stfassisi]

God kept the Bible intact. He may have allowed them the privilege

What you're saying is that God used heretics to give you inspired scripture and you are the true interpreter of scripture.

Problem with this is that there are thousands of others who think like you and disagree with your interpretations.Thus you have many self professing truths that resemble Buddhism ,not Christianity

[cva66snipe]

So we just let them go to hell. Nice. I will not stand before God and say I didn’t try.

No instead we speak the Gospel and let The Holy Spirit do the rest. Constantly putting someone on the defensive will accomplish nothing. Putting fellow Christians on the defensive over theology over and over again solves nothing either. Mankind is given Freewill. I don't worry much about someone in a church yes even Roman Catholic who personally acknowledges Christ as Lord and Savior. I'm far more concerned about a person who has never done so. Most persons are in the Roman Catholic Church because GOD led them there the same with other churches.

I know who Christ brothers and mother is and are as well as He himself stated. Look let me put it this way. If Catholic were praying to the moon goddess whatever for intercession I would see it as blasphemy as I would any church. Some verses in the Bible hint at intercession prayer in a few passages. One is a man in hell asking Abraham to has his servant bring him something to drink. Of course Abraham says so.

The Roman Catholics I know personally most of which is family acknowledge Christ as their Lord and Savior.

[bdeaner]

But not just scripture. That would be fine, but you use a lot of writings that don’t have Biblical authority. Since you don’t believe in sola scriptura, I don’t see how you can have any authority outside of it.

Ok, let's talk about Sola Scriptura. I hold, as the Catholic Church holds, that Sola Scriptura is a self-refuting doctrine.

Let's start with the most obvious reason why: the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

Think about that. There is not one verse anywhere in the Bible in which Sola Scriptura is taught, and it therefore becomes a self-refuting doctrine.

How do resolve this problem in your mind?

[Marysecretary]

No, they pray to Mary. That’s as bad as a moon goddess. I know many born again Catholics as well. They’re good people. But there are many who don’t really have a clue.

[Marysecretary]

God has used many people throughout the ages for His purposes, even Balaam’s ass.

[bdeaner]

And where does it say you have to do it over and over again?

First of all, I cannot be held to the standard of Sola Scriptura, because I reject that doctrine as self-refuting. The Church interprets Scripture to say, whether implicitly and explicitly, that we take the Eucharist every week, or more, and we are obligated to do so for the process of santification of our bodies and souls.

But, just for the sake of argument, even taking Sola Scriptura for granted, you actually have an even greater obligation: to receive the Eucharist EVERY DAY. In the early Church at Jerusalem the faithful received every single day! (Acts 2:46). That's what your Bible says. Why aren't you doing it?

[Marysecretary]

The Holy Spirit is the true interpreter, not any one church. I will trust HIM to show me the truth I need to see.

[stfassisi]

God has used many people throughout the ages for His purposes, even Balaam’s ass.

Perhaps He is using you to bring others to the Catholic Faith based on you elevating your interpretations of scripture above the Saints who gave us Bible canon

[PugetSoundSoldier]

Let's start with the most obvious reason why: the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

Please see 2 Timothy 3:15-17:

15: and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16: All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17: so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

The sacred writings at the time Paul wrote to Timothy were considered:

1. To contain the wisdom required to lead a man to salvation;
2. For reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
3. Equip a man of God for every good work.

Nothing more is needed than the Scriptures to reach salvation, to correct our brothers in Christ for righteousness, and to be equipped to preach the Good News.

[CTrent1564]

PugetSoundSoldier:

I will conjecture here. Because redgolum understands, as G.K. Chesterton once said that “Tradition is the democracy of the dead. It refuses to submit to an arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around”. More specifically, by embracing the Creeds and early Councils of the CHurch (i.e. Nicea), redgolum implicitly recognizes that God has acted in human history, and whether or not all of you folks whose ancestry is from Northern Europe, he acted in the context of a Roman and Greek world.

As Pope Benedict put it (Spirit of the Liturgy, p. 224), as to why the sacraments are celebrated using coomon elements of Mediterranean life, which are documented in Psalm 104 [Bread, wine and oil] “Incarnation does not mean doing as we please. On the contrary, it binds us to the history of a particular time. Outwardly, that history may seem fortuitous, but is is the form of history willed by God, and for us it is the trustworthy trace he has imprinted on the earth, the guarantee that we are not thinking up things for ourselves, but are truly touched by God and come into touch with him. Precisely through what is particular adn once-for-all, the here and now, we emerge from the “ever adn never” vagueness of mythology. It is with this particular face, with this particular human form, that Christ comes to us, and precisely thus does he make us brethren beyound all boundaries. Precisely thus do we recognize him “It is the Lord: (c.f. John 21:7).”

Pope Benedict further notes that Liturgical Rites of the Church, as expressed by the Fathers and the Creeds of the Church, that developed in Rome, Antioch and Alexandria (all cited as the Primary Churches of Christendom in Canon 6 at Nicea) are not just products of culture, they are part of the history of the Christian faith, that can never be separated from soil of sacred events, from the choice made by God, who wanted to speak to us, to become man, to die and rise again, in a particular time. Thus, the Church prays in such a way that ties us to the place and time God chose. So, the Rites, ways of worship, the Creeds, the teachings of the Fathers, are forms of the Apostolic Tradition and thus are part of God’s plan.

So once on understands Incarnational theology seriously, and its implications, one is moving towards the Historic Church of the first millenium, which is Catholic in the fullest sense, both Roman and Latin West and Greek/Byzantine East.

Regards

[Marysecretary]

I rather doubt that one, LOL.

[stfassisi]

The Holy Spirit is the true interpreter, not any one church. I will trust HIM to show me the truth I need to see.

By rejecting the Saints who gave you the canon you're saying the Holy Spirit resides in you and not them to interpret scripture

[bdeaner]

it is never faith in Jesus Christ...It is faith in their religion...

Pffft. There is no difference between faith in Jesus Christ and faith in the Church He founded authoritively through his Apostles. They are one and the same.

As for certain others on this thread, time seem to tell that they have no real doctrines to speak of, but their entire theology seems to be rejecting whatever the Catholic Church says.

REACTION FORMATION:
A defense mechanism where an individual acts in a manner opposite from his or her unconscious beliefs.

[Marysecretary]

I don’t do it because my Bible says to do it in remembrance of Him and not every day or every week or every 10 minutes. We do not partake of his actual body and blood.

[bdeaner]

That's not what your Bible says. You seem to be using your own authority "outside" of the Bible to make that determination. Your statements do not live up to your doctrine of Sola Scriptura. The BIBLE says in Acts 2:46 to partake of the Eucharist EVERY DAY. That's what the Apostles did! Why are you avoiding doing what the Scripture tells you to do? Do you REALLY mean it when you assert the doctrine of Sola Scripture, or not?