No Salvation Outside the Church

Catholic Answers ^ | 12/05 | Fr. Ray Ryland

[Petronski]

Yes, the universal Catholic Church is.

Correct!

[Petronski]

That’s a lie.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I realize you say you "trust (your) perception of sacrificial love being Christlike in the lives of the Saints."

But that was not the question, even in the slightest. My question, simple and clear and forcefully answered by Paul, was -- "do you trust yourself, and the good and pure testimony of your God-given conscience?"

Now before you demand where Paul makes this claim, please answer the question, or we'll have to assume it's either too difficult or too embarrassing for you to answer.

[Petronski]

Now before you demand where Paul makes this claim, please answer the question, or we'll have to assume it's either too difficult or too embarrassing for you to answer.

Doktor Freisler, is that you?

[Petronski]

Now before you demand where Paul makes this claim, please answer the question, or we'll have to assume it's either too difficult or too embarrassing for you to answer.

Doktor Freisler, is that you?

[bdeaner]

NOT one universal Catholic church. Universal catholic church. A big difference.

Redundant either way you put it. "Catholic" means "Universal."

[bdeaner]

I have come to realize that when something is a heresy to your religion, one might be able to wear that as a badge of honor...

Obviously.

You really seem to have no position other than opposition to whatever the Church says -- essentially the position of a contrarian, anti-Christ: wherever the Church is, there I am not.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

[CTrent1564]

stfassi:

The problem with much proposed here is it elevates the individual into there own “Pope” and it is all about me, i.e., “what I think” and “my conscious” and “my own personal salvation and not worrying about others”

If the Church is correctly the Body of Christ (c.f. 1 Cor 12: 12-14), and Bride of CHrist (c.f.Eph 5: 26-27) and the People of God (c.f. 1 Pet 2: 9-10), which points to a communion of love, which is God Himself in the Holy Trinity, then the notion of an individual only concerned with “there salvation” and “there saving grace” is as Pope Benedict points out [p.49, book cited below], quoting Lubac, “a caricature of Christianity” that in the 19th and 20th century, is what made milatant secularism and atheism possible.

Pope Benedict notes that viewing Sacraments in order to receive God’s Grace so as to ensure only my own private eternal health is the misunderstanding of sacrament. Using the image of the Church as a Sacrament, which means it is an instrument and sacrament of “unity”, then Christian faith, as Pope Benedict notes, citing Lubac again,is by its very nature union.

Pope Benedict states [Principles of Catholic Theology: Building Stones for a Fundamental Theology, p.49] “The essence of original sin is the split into individuality, which knows only itself. The essence of redemption is the mending of the shattered image of God, the union of the human race through and in the One who stands for all and in whom, as St. Paul says (c.f. Gal 3:28), are all one: Jesus Christ. On this premise, the word Catholic became for Lubac the main theme of all his theological speculation: to be Christian means to be Catholic, means to be on one’s way to an all-embracing unity. Union is redemption, for it is the realization of our likeness to God, the Three-in-One.

In think the Pople is clearly indicating that Protestantism, in many ways, with its rejection of Tradition, is the precursor for individualism and thus, atheism and secularist relativism. If my own personal interpretation of scripture, apart from the Church Fathers and Creeds, which attest to authentic Apostolic Tradition, is to binding in terms of faith and morals, this “philosophically” is consistent with the views taken by secularists today.

[Petronski]

Have you noticed the anti-religion theme running through the threads of the anti-Catholic posters?

[Nellie Oleson voice] "Oh I don't belong to a religion, I'm a Christian."

It's bizarre.

[Iscool]

I love it when I upload a post I've worked HOURS on, based FULLY on Scripture, without any reference to the Catechism, which undeniably supports Catholic doctrine, and there is little more than crickets in response -- again, with Mr. Rogers being one of the few exceptions

That's an easy one to respond to...Like the few Catholics that delve into the scriptures, you post scriptures out of context, you post long posts that are basically copies of what other Catholics post from their Catholic commissioned 'pat' answers and it would take forever to respond to those terribly long posts...

And I rarely click on one of your Catholic links for the same reason...Most of the links are a sales pitch on the intellectualism of it's author instead of addressing what little scripture that accompanies it...

And when you post snippets from your church fathers; with many, we don't know that they actually wrote what you post and neither do you...What we do know is your church has been caught with it's pants down forging some of these writings...So who knows how many they haven't been caught forging...

And when your church fathers delete, add to or altar in general what the scriptures say, I for one just regard them as more pagans mixed in the bunch...

[Iscool]

1,196...Well said...

[bdeaner]

You get the same answers from Catholics because they are all the RIGHT answers.

If you ask 1000 people, "What is 2 + 2?" don't complain if they all say "4."

[bdeaner]

Have you noticed the anti-religion theme running through the threads of the anti-Catholic posters?

Absolutely! It's pervasive. The implication, it seems to me, is a lack of any willingness to have an obligation to anything but themselves and their own private interpretations of the scriptures. It is no wonder there has been such a massive slide into the secularizing of the public sphere and a rise of atheism since the Reformation!

[bdeaner]

During those years, we see in Acts and the Epistles NO hierarchical structure, with Peter as the leading authority. In fact, Paul refers to Peter (and James & John) as “those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential” and “who seemed to be pillars”.

Certainly all the Apostles have a certain degree of authority, and any good leader would take into serious consideration the opinions of highly regarded individuals in the group.

I am sure you are familiar with the whole "Peter"-rock debate. So, I won't get into the details of that issue right now. But I take it for granted that Christ did pass authority to Peter by giving him the proverbial keys to the Kingdom, and the authority to loose and bind. BUT in another verse, later, we learn that Christ gave all the apostles the power to loose and bind. So, they all share a certain degree of authority; however, the See of Peter has special authority above that of the others, represented by the key.

The same is true in the Church today. All of the Bishops of the Church have Apostolic succession. They were instituted as Bishops through the laying on of hands, a practice that goes back to the Apostles -- (arguably) in an unbroken line through to the present day. The Pope is not the sole authority in the Magisterium, but in certain special circumstances -- curcumstances that have arisen only twice in the entire history of the Church -- the Pople can make an extraordinary claim to infallibility by making a statement ex cathredra. This is exceptionally rare. Otherwise, the Pope is the leader of an entire episcopacy of bishops which altogether constitute the Magisterium that preserves and teaches the Deposit of Faith.

To summarize then: The deposit of faith consists of the teachings Jesus Christ has given to us through the Apostles. It is imperative to understand that in the exercise of its magisterial, or teaching, atuhority, the hierarchy of the Church cannot and does not add or substract from this deposit. They may guard it and teach it, only -- but this includes unfolding what are implicit doctrines in the Deposit of Faith, which may not have been previously made explicit definitively in history.

When the Church speaks of the "Deposit of Faith," this includes both Sacred Scropture and tradition -- which do not contradict one another. Tradition is not free to contradict Scripture, which is why Catholics do take Scripture very seriously. But interpretation is subject to error, and the Church claims -- I argue legitimately -- that is it protected from error (in special circumstances and conditions) by the Holy Spirit. There are special safeguards to avoid allowing corrupting influences to poison the Deposit of Faith.

A key idea here is that the Church does not invent new ideas. Not at all! Public revelations ended with the death of the last Apostle. The role of the Church however is to teach and preserve what is already there and to protect against the flock being led astray by false doctrine (heresies).

Does Scripture support this view? Yes. Here are some key Scriptures (just scratching the surface at this point):

Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Here we see the Church keeping to the teaching of the Apostles.

1 Thess. 5:12-13
12Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other.

Here St. Paul teaches the Church to respect the ministers of the Church.

1 Cor. 4:18
18Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you.

Here St. Paul asserts his rightful authority as an Apostle and rebukes the reprobates in his midst as guilty of inflated pride.

Acts 1:21-22, 26
21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."

23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Here of course we witness Apostolic succession taking place.

2 Thessalonians 2:5
Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

Here we see one of a variety of passages that demonstrate the authoritative nature of Apostolic (oral) tradition.

The Scriptures also help us to understand why the authority of the Church is necessary. Whenever we see believers wandering off and doing their own thing -- even when they are genuinely committed to the Lord -- they end up falling into error.

Galatians 1:6-8
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Note: I find this highly ironic when Protestants use this passage as a supposed criticism of Catholicism. It does not refute Church hierarchy, but demonstrates the absolute need for it if we are not to dissolve forever into warring and irreconciliable factions rather than remaining a solid, unified Church in the war against Satan and his minions.

Another example:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.'

Another:

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. as St. Paul writes to a junior bishop.

Our Lord could have gone it alone. He is the Lord! He could have ushered in the salvation of the world in any way He chose to do. Yet, for reasons that are a mystery, He chose rather to use His Apostles for this job. He clearly gives them teaching authority, and He promises them that the Holy Spirit will keep them free of theological error (they remain sinners of course).

Luke 10:16
He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.

Luke 22:29-30
and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

John 15:20
Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also.

John 15:27
and you [Apostles] also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

The original Apostles were mortal, and so they extended this authority to their successors using the authority Christ had given them. They established fellow Apostles and, eventually, bishops. We see this in Acts 1 at the very beginning of the Church, when Judas was replaced by the Apostles.

What about evidence of a hierarchy?

1 Corinthians 12:27-31
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[a]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[b] the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.

[Iscool]

That's a filthy lie.

It may be filthy but it's not a lie...

At least other Catholics respond that it's just a fringe group...You need to get out more...Learn a little about your religion...

[bdeaner]

P.S. You don’t get points in theology for creativity. We’re after the TRUTH, not originality. Save creativity for art class.

[bdeaner]

Here is a guy harping about the supposed "heresy" of understanding Mary as a co-redemptrix (it's not heresy), and yet doesn't even assent to the Nicene Creed.

[Iscool]

If you ask 1000 people, "What is 2 + 2?" don't complain if they all say "4."

Ha...The Catholics add 2 and 2 and come up with fourteen...When all they have to do is take off their shoes and count...

[Petronski]

At least other Catholics respond that it's just a fringe group...

Of course you can show this "petition:"

...petitioned to have your infallible magisterium turn Mary in to the 4th person of the Trinity...

[Petronski]

You don’t get points in theology for creativity.

I'm sure he could find someone to give him points for creativity in theology.