Posted on 12/09/2008 5:52:09 AM PST by TexConfederate1861
I'm thinking, with you, going too far would mean to shake the Pope's hand and wish him "good morning, your holiness"...
Truly, it sounds so very Protestant to me. I am not sure where we find this directive in the Bible - where the people get rid of their leaders. I can see writing letters to higher authorities, passive resistance, prayers to God, etc, but the mob mentality isn't cutting it. I seem to remember St. Clement's letter to the Corinthians, and it doesn't back up what you seem to be flouting here.
Regards
An excellent point. We face an incredible heresy here, Modernism. It is rocking the West, just as Arianism was in the East many years ago. I don't think the East realizes the fiendishness of this heresy, how it draws people out of the faith. Consider most spiritual writers think of material comforts and such as completely detrimental to the devout lifestyle. That, coupled with a general malaise towards anything spiritual and invisible.
2. The Western Church has to mature. She should clear up its liturgy, above everything else. At this point, serious Catholics dread the thought of attending a Catholic service in some clown parish down the street.
I agree, although the clown mass is a bit exaggerated, as if we can hardly avoid it here... I agree wholeheartedly that the Liturgy is instrumental in teaching the faithful that inner sense of awe and worship - that is largely missing from many Catholic Churches here in the US. I cannot answer for other places, but I know in Italy, they still have it. Probably our stinkin' liturgists at work in the "spirit of vatican" misinterpreted.
Good post, Annalex.
Regards
Why would you make such an awful statement,Kolo!
You should apologize for this
How much of the Catechism have you read anyway?
The Catechism is filled with writings of the Eastern Fathers to explain the faith.
It also says things like this....
“With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist.”324
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm#I
1386 Before so great a sacrament, the faithful can only echo humbly and with ardent faith the words of the Centurion: “Domine, non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbo, et sanabitur anima mea” (”Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul will be healed.”).217 And in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom the faithful pray in the same spirit:
O Son of God, bring me into communion today with your mystical supper. I shall not tell your enemies the secret, nor kiss you with Judas’ kiss. But like the good thief I cry, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm#IV
I'll include you in my prayer at Mass at noon!
“You ignore my point. You are experts in Orthodoxy, not Catholicism and what it teaches. Yet, you tell us our version of the symbol of faith is false? This is based upon your knowledge of Catholicism?”
I ignore nothing and do not pretend to be an expert in Roman Catholicism. Your version of the symbol of faith, however, is plainly false as you pray it. You say you mean “from the Father through the Son”, which of course is correct...but that’s not what either the English or the Latin says. Will the new rule, when dealing with Roman theology, be “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain”?
“I think the matter should be left to the experts in the East, not the self-proclaimed lay experts, who are by day farmers, and by night, a budding Gregory of Nyssa...”
And therein, Jo, lies the rub. It WILL be left to the People of God to decide, not hierarchs whose skulls, it is said, pave the floor of Hell.
“It appears you are saying YOU will judge what Rome is saying, no matter what the Bishops tell you (a la Florence).”
That’s not quite correct. We will listen to what the bishops say and then decide.
“I don’t think the majority of the Eastern laity is in the position to know what the West teaches without prejudice.”
We recognize what isn’t Orthodox Christianity.
“Would you care if Rome stuck its noses into your own personal issues at your parish?”
We’d cut them off! The Latins simply quake, which, now that I think of it, would be a good thing in the matter of clown Masses.
“The condescending attitude that looks down on Western Christiandom. It is unbecoming of the “People of God”... It needs to be corrected, not just for the sake of unification, but for the sake of souls. Religious pride is frowned upon, even by the Eastern Church Fathers.”
Tell that one to the partisans of the infallible “Vicar of Christ on Earth”, Jo.
“I agree with these suggestions, if the rest of your compadres will allow it.”
Under stand that the sort of intercommuion I am speaking of is quite literally pursuant to “economia”. There would need to be a substantial reason for the intercommunion. Paddy O’Brien couldn’t come over to my Greek Orthodox parish and receive communion because there are 7 or 8 Roman Catholic parishes within 15 minutes of my parish. Similarly, if I were in Athens I couldn’t properly go to the Latin parish there and receive communion as there are dozens of Orthodox Churches there. But, if I were in, say, Vientiane on a Sunday, I could go to Mass and communion at the Latin
Church there since there is no (or at least there didn’t used to be) any Orthodox parish there. The same would be true for you in reverse were you to find yourself in my maternal village in Greece.
“But there is really no point IF the laity already have it in their head that they, the “real” People of God, have decided that Rome is heretical and any Eastern bishop that says otherwise (after consultation and exploration of theology with Western bishops) should be sacked.”
You may well be right. But remember, what we know is what is and is not Orthodox and that’s what we react to.
“The attitude in the East that followed Florence can never bring about reunion.”
The attitude, the phronema of Orthodoxy, hasn’t changed one bit since Florence. We will look at reunion proposals the same way they were after Florence, which is to say, is what we are being asked to accept Orthodox?
Lest the main point be forgotten:
On the one occasion in history when bishops from the East and the West met together in synod to confront their differences, the East recognized that the West was not in heresy over the filioque. The Filioque controversy is sustained by the mischaracterization that the Catholics contend that the Holy Spirit proceeds from two sources. Obstinately repeating that contention in spite of such a truth is not righteous.
Further, the claim that the West has no authority to permit the Filioque to be said is spurious, since the only means to assert that no council ratified such a move is to assert in circular logic that the Council of Florence was heretical.
>> Herein lies the problem. In the East the faithful are called Laos tou Theou, the People of God, aka Israel. In the West they are called sheep, among the dumbest of animals. It says a lot about our Churches, doesn’t it? <<
I got the reference to sheep from the bible, not Rome.
>> The army was the Byzantine Army and the Emperor did not give them a choice. <<
The Byzantine Emperor certainly did implore his bishops to attend. However, the Byzantine Emperor was already 95% destroyed, consisting only of the small Isthmus that Constantinople was on, and the southern Greek peninsula that Athens was on. Very few of the Eastern bishops were from territory under his control. Any persuasion he had on them was that they shared his desire not to see Constantinople fall to the Turks. The notion that he used his army to force them is downright comical.
“Why would you make such an awful statement,Kolo!
You should apologize for this”
Because I sincerely believe it is a pernicious and evil document which has destroyed the ability of the Latin Christians to fully live The Faith or effectively communicate with the Orthodox East.
“How much of the Catechism have you read anyway?”
All of it. I was also brought up on the Baltimore Catechism by the ironically named Sisters of Mercy.
You know, sfa, you wouldn’t need an “official” version of The Faith if the Latin Church lived Lex orandi, lex credendi, which all too obviously these days it does not... which in light of what has happened liturgically in the West, on balance may be a good thing.
“I’ll include you in my prayer at Mass at noon!”
Thank-you; as the “chief among sinners”, I need all the prayers I can get!
Yes. Of course. This is why the Latin Church has nothing to fear when it convenes the Grand Reunification Ecumenical Council in 2054 without preconditions. We, too, know orthodoxy.
Your language is offensive.
“Your language is offensive.”
Really? How so?
“This is why the Latin Church has nothing to fear when it convenes the Grand Reunification Ecumenical Council in 2054 without preconditions.”
That sort of goes without saying, doesn’t it?
The Chruch was the state.
Good heavens. Just go away.
It was an official repudiation. Read your history.
“On the one occasion in history when bishops from the East and the West met together in synod to confront their differences, the East recognized that the West was not in heresy over the filioque.”
No, the East didn’t recognize that the West was not in heresy over the filioque. A group of Eastern hierarchs did, and they got overturned, the effect being quite the opposite of what you state.
Right. This is the life of the Church according your Protestantized minds: /199-ClownMass.jpg)
Archbishop Alois Kothgasser of Salzburg, Austria, second from the left, joins hands with a clown at the altar during a Mass on October 16, 2004
I will take our rituals and our reverence any time over yours.
Yeah, but now you are letting history get in the way of fairytale that the Latin Chruch was never domonated by any state in any way. You are spoiling a nice story.
Obviosuly not.
Why? It's just a ritual according to you.
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