Posted on 05/20/2008 7:45:05 AM PDT by NYer
No Crucifix can keep Him on the Cross. It is a depiction in bronze or wood or plastic. The figure is not Him, merely a likeness.
The kind of analysis I quoted just above in this post makes the Crucifix into some kind of voodoo doll.
I’m certain someone who places no stock in the writings of Saints Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Pope Peter I and the other fathers of the Catholic Church would also have no problem laughing at them and what they did.
Just a reminder for ya...
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
But you guys don't let Jesus get off the Cross in your Eucharist celebration...He never leaves it...
Or do you suggest we dismantle the Statue of Liberty, nuke Mount Rushmore and obliterate the contents of Statuary Hall on Capitol Hill?
But you guys don't let Jesus get off the Cross in your Eucharist celebration...He never leaves it...
That is a false witness of Catholic teachings and practices.
What is the point in arguing with someone who is so uncivil as to tell other people what THEY believe, in the face of repeated denials. He has ESP and knows what others believe better than they do! Looks like Simon Magus is still with us.
Popping foolish balloons is fun.
This is a demeaning and personal remark.
I’m surprised it isn’t pointed out as such by others besides me.
And I ask myself—of what value are such types of “drive-by” comments?
They provide filler where no other answer is available.
This is a statement that is patently false and it’s a shame that it is even made.
There is surely an accounting to be made for statements that bear false witness.
I admire your tenacity in defense of the Catholic faith, but you are dealing with willful ignorance (at best).
It makes absolutely no difference what church I belong to...I don’t follow church teaching, I follow the scriptures...
Well, I disagree with you here. The fact that you belong to an Independent Baptist Church is the theological lens you interpret the scripture. Other than your local Pastor, you make yourself the “infallible” determiner of what is theologically orthdox, apart from the ancient Creeds of the Church (Apostles and Nicene), which were defined and developed by the “Church”. The scriptures you read, i.e. which ones were approved for the NT canon, were determined by the “Church”, both guided by the Holy Spirt, but it was the Church that was the instrument through which God worked.
As for John The Baptist, the term “Baptist” in this context refers to the fact that John used Baptism has a call for preparation for the coming of the Kingdom of God (i.e. “Prepare the way of the Lord, make straight his paths” [c.f. Mk 1:3]). Christ did not found an “independent Baptist Church”, he found one Church (Mt 16:16-19) and the Church is “one body (c.f. 1 Cor 12:12-14)” and is his “Bride, c.f. Eph 5:32” and all those who are baptized into the Church are the “people of God” as 1 Peter 2:9-10 states Christ acquired a people “who were not a people” and these people are “a Chosen race, royal priesthood, a Holy Nation”.
Your ecclesiology is implicitly unorthodox, in that the notion that Christ founded a invisible Church made of believers, contradicts the Scriptures and the reality that Christ is the incarnate word made flesh. Thus, a body is not a body which is invisible only. Christ as a Divine Person is True God and True Man, thus the Divine Nature and Human Nature are fully present in the person of Christ (c.f. Council of Chalcedon 451 AD). Accordingly, your theology of the Church is “inconsistent” with one of the core Christological Doctrines of who Christ is. Thus, the Church, as Christ Body is a Divinely founded communion that is both visible (earthly) and spiritual, consisent with the person of Christ Jesus.
I am not going to convince you with the Church Fathers, I am aware of that. However, there are numerous Protestant scholars in the field of Patristics who have read the data and have come to conclusions consisent with the Catholic Church as to which writings are authentic, and which are spurious. Perhaps you can ask some of the Reformed-Calvinist or Lutheran Protestants here for a Protestant compilation of The Church Fathers. While those Protestant groups do not accord the same weight to the Tradition of the Church Fathers as Catholics and Eastern Orthdox do, they do have a greater respect for the Church Fathers and don’t discount them to the degree that you do as an independent Baptist.
Regards
What are you talking about??? It means exactly what it says...
Or do you suggest we dismantle the Statue of Liberty, nuke Mount Rushmore and obliterate the contents of Statuary Hall on Capitol Hill?
You read what God says...Don't make em'...Don't bow down to them...You don't like it??? Build another statue...A giant monstrance, or something...
What did I claim you believe that you don’t??? I’ve claimed a lot of things you SHOULD believe and you don’t...
And which remark is that???
In the event that I am wrong in my understanding I'll ask my question for the third time.
Do you believe any Ecumenical Council has ever erred?
Please address that question and only that question. Thank you.
Like I said, one can read Exodus 20:4, or one can read the entirety of the context: Exodus 20:2-6.
Do you favor the destruction of the Statue of Liberty, Mount Rushmore and the others?
AMEN.
And further, because God's justice is all-holy and requires a perfect satisfaction which no man can perform, Christ was ordained the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" to pay one-time, in-full, for all the sins of His flock, according to the purpose of God in creating in the first place.
There are lots of questions still floating around the universe regarding God and men and eternity. But a firm understanding of election, based on who God says He is and what He has required from the very beginning, rightly aligns our eyes and hearts and lives toward Christ alone.
When I read Colossians 1, I finally understood election. It's all Christ, everywhere, for all time.
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." -- Colossians 1:16-17"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And then I read Ephesians 1 and realized that "all" Christ really means "all" because that's the way God determined life to be, "declaring the end from the beginning" - "by, for, and through Jesus Christ."
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Ephesians 1:4-6"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
God's grace "makes us accepted in Christ." Our rebirth by the Holy Spirit is the only thing that permits a man to love God before himself and so "to be without blame." And this rebirth is a free, unmerited gift from God by the Holy Spirit, determined by God "according to the good pleasure of His will"..."before the foundation of the world"..."to the praise of the glory of His grace."
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places" -- Ephesians 1:17-20"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
All Christ, according to God's will.
Further, it's important for Christians to realize this is not what Rome teaches. Rome teaches that God's hand in salvation begins at the moment of baptism and is alternately removed and replaced with every "act of sin/act of confession" that is made. Rome teaches that our blessed assurance that Christ has paid in full for our sins, according to God's will and purpose is actually a sin!
But Scripture denies Rome's condemnation.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." -- Romans 5:8-9"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Assurance of our election by God through Christ is no sin. It is Christ's promise to us that He will lose none of His flock given to Him by God.
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." -- Hebrews 7:24-25 "But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
So the bottom line is not that the Christian needs to earn his salvation through good works or piety or sacraments since Christ's atonement has already paid the price for their redemption in full (Hebrews 10.)
The proper perspective for the Christian is "after-the-fact" gratitude because we know from Scripture that we have been justified by Jesus Christ on the cross. And from this correct understanding of what Christ has already done for us, the Christian presses forward "toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" in repentence, in obedience, in certainty, living a life that glorifies God by the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
lol. That thread was wrong the first time you posted it and it hasn't improved in the interim.
Rome still misunderstands Christ's justification of His flock and therefore, Rome very nearly denies the atonement, replacing God's grace with human merits and a works-based salvation.
I can worship God, or I can worship the creepy, petty god created by Cauvin in his own image.
No contest.
The Catholic Church rejects Cauvin's distorted confection of justification and perseveres as the Church which Christ Himself founded.
As for Rome, well, I didn't know that Italian city had a collective misunderstanding (or understanding for that matter) of anything.
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