Posted on 05/03/2008 4:38:34 PM PDT by NYer
Thanks. It was my first seemingly good thought all day so it’s nice to score one even if it’s just before bedtime.
ROFLMAOAPIMPRFI
Anti-Catholic hate is a dollar a ton around here.
First, however, I am a tad offended by your condescension and mind-reading act, saying I "want so badly for this scripture to make the sola scriptura argument." And maybe my pride is hurt a little by your suggestion that I can't properly handle the English language because of my emotional stake. I assure you that I am looking for truth where it may be found, and I also assure you that I am not driven by emotions on this or any other subject, except golf. And finally, I'm sorry that you're sorry for me - somehow I don't feel as impoverished spiritually as you seem to think.
Your gasoline analogy is false. Please try to follow my reasoning for saying so. I will work backward in analyzing 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.
The last section of the verses is introduced by "so that." So, this is the conclusion to be drawn from what went before. The conclusion is that the man of God may be perfect, complete, fully equipped for every good work. In context, Paul is talking to Timothy about salvation, so that is the implication of this "completeness."
Now, what contributes to this perfection (completeness, full equippedness)? 1) Didactic instruction; 2) proof, evidence, and reproof; 3) Straightening of crooked paths, root word "orthosis" or the truth about a topic, namely Christ and salvation; and 4) paedia, or chastening. Paul says these are the components that can make a man perfect, complete, fully equipped.
Now, what provides these four components. Paul says "scripture." The scripture he is talking about is God-breathed. Maybe something else could have been on Paul's mind, but try to see: if scripture is a vehicle to do it, and if scripture has the breath of God in it, then why would you consider it necessary, or even advisable, to consider other sources of the components?
This passage is saying in the most straightforward Greek and English that can be used that scripture is sufficient to bring a man to salvation, completion, perfection, etc. The reason is that the scripture of which Paul speaks tells man how to know Christ really and lovingly. Since God "breathed" it, to say that something else is necessary is to say that God needed to add more to what He already considered sufficient.
Now, do the same analysis on your gasoline analogy. The "so that" is "that you have a happy journey." OK, what are the components of a happy journey? Let's say 1) a car in good condition, 2) a trunk well-packed, 3) good maps, and 4) a power source for the engine. How do we get these four components. Your argument by analogy is that gasoline will get us a happy journey, but only as a part of the process. But the analogy fails, simply because gasoline is one of the components. Paul is not saying that Scripture is one component of salvation, it is the vehicle that contains all the components.
Jude says in his epistle to contend for the faith delivered once (Gr. "once and for all") to the saints. It is not "faith" he is talking about, it is "the faith," a body of information sufficient to salvation (they are "saints," after all). It was delivered in Jude's past not in Jude's present. It was delivered "once and for all". It didn't need embellishment.
So, by Jude's time, the saving message of the gospel was complete. Paul says in 2 Tim 3:16, 17 that it was in written form and he expected his readers to know what he was talking about. Peter in 2 Peter 3:16 recognized Paul's writing as scripture and noted that twisting those writings was leading men to destruction, the opposite of salvation.
If that's sola scriptura, my apologies. I didn't mean for it to turn out that way.
As to your question about why look for "a bare minimum," I fear you don't know what the difference is between a "minimum" and a "nucleus." Perhaps because of your emotional involvement you misstated what I said :) By searching for a nucleus, I am seeking the core of the gospel, so that I can see clearly what are the accretions which have adulterated the "pure milk" of the word. And on that account, I don't distinguish between the adulteration by a protestant televangelist or by a Catholic council or a Reformation hyper-intellectualist. There is a nucleus outside of which I may tolerate what I hear, but certainly don't have to be bound. The Bible told me so.
As to "bare minimums," I'll just add that my wife and I have worked among the poor in South America full- and part-time for the last 16 years, teaching the "core" of the gospel to the best of our understanding of it, not burdening people with anything but the joy of the gospel, and rejoicing in the grace of Christ all the while. So, for what it's worth, I don't consider my walk with God impoverished
LOL!
Okay
Νῦν χαί.ρω ἐν τοῖς πα.θή.μα.σιν ὑ.πὲρ ὑ.μῶν, καὶ ἀν.τα.ναπ.λη.ρῶ τὰ ὑσ.τε.ρή.μα.τα τῶν θλίψ.ε.ων τοῦ Χρισ.τοῦ ἐν τῇ σαρ.κί μου ὑ.πὲρ τοῦ σώ.μα.τος αὐ.τοῦ, ὅ ἐσ.τιν ἡ ἐκ.κλη.σί.α,
Nun [3568 now, just now, at the present time] chairō [5463 to rejoice, to be glad] en [1722 in, a being or remaining within, with the primary idea of rest in any place or thing. Of place, in, within, among. Of time, on, upon] ho [3588 his - the definite article, the; here, the Genitive, τοῦ (tou) of the (one referred to, that is to say God) hence, his] pathēma [3804 affliction, suffering] huper [5228 on behalf of another, for] humeis [5210 ye -(nominative plural ο (o 3588)f σύ (su 4771) thou) ye, you] kai [2532 and, also, even, a conjunction] antanaplēroō [466 to fill up] ho [his again: see above 3588] husterēma [5303 that which comes short, that which is wanting, lack, deficiency, want] ho thlipsis [2347 tribulation, pressure, affliction] ho Christos [5547 anointed one, Messiah] en ho sarx [4561 - flesh; then, corporeity according to its material side (σῶμα (sōma 4983) being the organic whole, the body, and therefore is to be distinguished from it); then, the outward form of human nature, and therefore human nature in its embodiment. As used by St. Paul, all that is peculiar to human nature in its corporeal embodiment is said to belong to it; and hence, he uses it as the distinct antithesis to πνεῦμα (pneuma 4151) (spirit)] huper [5228 - over and separate from; here only with Genitive on behalf of, as though bending over to protect] ho sōma [4983 body - the body as a whole whether man or animals] autos [846 - very, self, joined with each of the persons, with the third person, not simply he, but he himself, he and no other. Always emphatic] hos [3739 whosoever, whomsoever, who, which] eimi [1510 is] ho ekklēsia [1577 church -the common term for a meeting of the ἔκκλητοι (ekklētoi) (those summoned) to discuss the affairs of a Free State; the body of citizens summoned together by a herald (κῆρυξ (kērux 2783)). The Greek translation of the Old Test. transfer the term to the assembly of the people of Israel, whether summoned or met for a definite purpose (1Ki 8:65), or considered as the representative of the entire nation. In NT it denotes the redeemed community in its two-fold aspect. (i) The entire community of all who are called by and to Christ out of the world, the Church universal (ii) every Church in which the character of the Church as a whole is seen in miniature. The summoning is expressed by the latter part of the word (καλεῖν (kalein)), and out of by the first part (ἐκ (ek 1537))].
KJV - Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
NASV - Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.
ESV - Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
Personally what I'm seeing from the GREEK text here is that the church is a body of believers summoned together, who will suffer affliction and trials which is a reason to rejoice. Again, not a name over the door. You interpret this as the Roman Catholic Church, but the text doesn't say that. The text says those who are redeemed constitute the church.
"This reconciliation by Christ of Jews and Gentiles to God in one body is a mystery revealed only in Christ. Paul rejoiced that he was able to suffer for them what was still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions. By this he did not mean that Christ's suffering on the cross was insufficient (cf. Rom. 3:21-26; Heb. 10:10-14). He was speaking not of salvation but of service. Christ's suffering alone procures salvation (I Peter 1:11; 5:1; Heb. 2:9). But it is a believer's privilege to suffer for Christ (2 Tim. 3:11; I Peter 3:13-14; 5:9; Heb. 10:32). The word 'affliction' (thlipsis) - never used in the New Testament of Christ's death - means 'distress', 'pressure', or 'trouble' (which Paul had plenty of; 2 Cor. 11:23-29). Ordinarily it refers to trials in life, not the pains of death. Christ does indeed continue to suffer when Christians suffer for Him....since the church is Christ's body, He is affected when it is affected. For the sake of Christ's body Paul willingly suffered (Phil. 1:29)." (The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord, Zuck, Chariot Victor Publishing, c1983; p. 675).
Again!?!
Looking at the Greek text collapses sola scriptura? LOL! Yeah sure, rofl.
A lowly state does not need to imply sin.
It does in the Greek text, which you seem to be ignorant of. Not surprising since it contradicts your 'views' - unbiblical views at that.
You honestly think you can know truth while divorced from logic?
But your ad hominem attacks are akin to retreat and surrender.
Understandably so.
Such vulgar language is not permitted in the religion forum.
“with none of the hoopla and accoutraments of the professional RELIGIOUS politicians of the Roman magicsterical.”
Worse than the hoopla and accoutraments of smug freepers who put heavenly things in the service of their own egos?
Thanks for the Heavenly points from your personally assaultive attack.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2010892/posts#9
He forgot to switch profiles before posting his RM admonishment.
No doubt you noticed but perhaps chose to ignore the fact that Alex posted that thread, and so he would feel the normal proprietary interest in it when other posters were making offensive comments, perhaps hoping to get the thread pulled. Who knows? But comments similar to his have been written by many posters, Protestants and Catholics.
BTW Dr. Eck, I notice you didn’t want to discuss UFOTheology.
And you'll also note that when you were asking me those UFO questions, the site was crashing. I tried twice to answer, but couldn't post.
FWIW, I don't believe UFO threads have much impact on theology, but they are fascinating to read in general for a variety of reasons.
But differing opinions about UFOs pale in comparison to not understanding that men are saved by grace and grace alone. Opinions about Mars or "Forbidden Planet" do not imperil one's Christian walk. Whereas believing some men are "another Christ" and that Mary is a "co-redeemer" are words that just might condemn.
"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." -- Matthew 12:37
Only reference I can find to "blessed above women" is Jael, who killed Sisera after tricking him into her tent.
No, nothing personal indeed. I’m attacking the sickness, not the patient.
Contenders Ministry website contains none of the above.
It is merely the Protestant understanding of salvation and how Rome gets it wrong. Just like a Catholic posted the thread, "Protestants and Sola Scriptura," all about why Catholics disagree with Protestants.
But you don't see us whining about getting that thread pulled or complaining that it's filled with "hate and bigoty;" just Scriptural error.
Contender Ministries is not a hate site. Please stop with the insults. Or read the essay. It'll do you good.
Funny, no mention is made of the leftover wine. Hmm, must not be any leftover, why?
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