Why Evangelicals are Returning to Rome

CIC ^ | April 2008 | Bob DeWaay

[Campion]

All you see is bread and wine...Someone told you it's Jesus.

Um, yeah that would be ... Jesus who told us it's Jesus.

"What the Truth has said is true, or nothing is," as the hymn of Thomas Aquinas says.

[Titanites]

The people that read and believe my bible, the Authorized Version, know that it originated in Antioch

Authorized by whom?

[Titanites]

But True Power, God's power, is so unlike ours that to the unredeemed eye it looks like weakness. and therefore they reject crucifixes. They don't know power when they see it.

Thanks for this excellent insight.

[Campion]

And here, Jesus tell us what was between the beginning and end of the OT scriptures

No, actually he isn't. That's something you're reading into the text.

You might note that none of the OT deuterocanon is prophetic literature (like, e.g., Isaiah); it's all either wisdom literature or historical. Hence, none of its authors were prophets, (and none, AFAIK, were martyred), hence none of them could be classed with the "blood of all the prophets".

The passage says nothing about the OT canon, which is a concept which didn't even really exist at that time. (The formal Jewish condemnation of the OT deuterocanon took place after AD 135.) The closest thing to it would be the books that were translated in the Septuagint (which is the Greek Bible the NT authors quote, often word for word), which included the OT deuterocanon.

[Iscool]

Some protestants see a man on a cross and think, "Weakness."They do not understand (neither do I!) Divine power. They think that God the Son of God on a cross is about weakness.
But True Power, God's power, is so unlike ours that to the unredeemed eye it looks like weakness.
and therefore they reject crucifixes. They don't know power when they see it.

In other words, you have no idea why some Protestants reject crosses...

Most Protestant churches do display a Cross...An empty cross...Because Jesus is NOT on a cross...He is risen...

That's the power of God...

Some Protestant churches do not display a cross...They rightly believe that the cross was a shame...It was a curse...It was humiliation...

And yet they all preach the Cross of Christ...

No Protestant I have EVER heard of claimed Jesus was weak...

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

[Iscool]

Pig Latin.

What's that??? I raised pigs but they didn't speak Latin...Well, maybe they did...

But I'm glad they translated it into English...

[Iscool]

Iscool, believe me, the Vulgate didn't come from Africa.

Jerome used all kinds of sources for his 'many' translations, some of which were African...

[nanetteclaret]

Jesus said, “This is my Body.” He also said, “I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” John 6:51.

He also said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.” John 6:53-56

Do you not believe Jesus’ own words?

So what if all we see is bread and wine? I should think the Creator of the world could be present under the appearance of bread and wine if He wanted to. He is God, after all. Just because it LOOKS like bread and wine, doesn’t mean it IS.

[Iscool]

The passage says nothing about the OT canon, which is a concept which didn't even really exist at that time.

Of course it did...And Jesus acknowledged it did...

(The formal Jewish condemnation of the OT deuterocanon took place after AD 135.)

So what??? They finally got together and agreed that your extra books didn't belong in there...

The closest thing to it would be the books that were translated in the Septuagint (which is the Greek Bible the NT authors quote, often word for word), which included the OT deuterocanon.

There is no evidence that the Septuatgint WAS NOT invented by Origen, or more probably Eusibius centuries later...

[Campion]

An empty cross

After all, doesn't Paul say, "We preach Christ taken down off the cross, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Greeks ...".

Oh, wait, no, I guess he doesn't.

I'm glad my faith isn't ashamed of the Cross of Christ.

[Iscool]

Do you not believe Jesus’ own words?

Sure I do...But Jesus also said He talks in parables while in mixed company...And He was in mixed company...

[Campion]

There is no evidence that the Septuatgint WAS NOT invented by Origen, or more probably Eusibius centuries later

Okay, this is officially the kookiest thing I've read this month.

There's no evidence that your "Authorized Version" wasn't left here by Martians, either.

Tell me, if Origen invented the Septuagint, did he also invent a time machine to go back 200 years and include portions of the Septuagint with the Dead Sea Scrolls?

[nanetteclaret]

Iscool -

Have you ever seen these two verses of Scripture?

“And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch.” John 10:22-23

What is “the feast of the dedication?” The answer is in I Maccabees 4:56-59: “And they kept the dedication of the altar eight days, and they offered holocausts with joy, and sacrifices of salvation, and of praise. And they adorned the front of the temple with crowns of gold, and escutcheons, and they renewed the gates, and the chambers, and hanged doors upon them. And there was exceeding great joy among the people, and the reproach of the Gentiles was turned away. And Judas, and his brethren, and all the church of Israel decreed, that the day of the dedication of the altar should be kept in its season from year to year for eight days, from the five and twentieth day of the month of Casleu, with joy and gladness.”

It is evident that Jesus had read these books, and like all other Jews, kept the Feast of Dedication (Hannukah).

[nanetteclaret]

There is nothing in John chapter 6 to indicate that Jesus was speaking in parables. Especially since He let some of the disciples leave. He could have called them back and told them that He was speaking in parables, but He didn’t. “Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” John 6:60, 66

[fortheDeclaration]

Beginning with exceptionally pure KJV, whose accuracy has been discussed with much interest here.

Actually the line began with Luther- Tyndale-Geneva and finishing up with the pure AV1611.

[fortheDeclaration]

I use a New King James bible. Am I ok???? Inquiring minds need to know.

No, the NKJ has many of the corrupt Alexandrian readings in it.

If you want details I would be happy to provide them.

[Forest Keeper]

Are you suggesting that everybody get back to the basics?

Yes, absolutely, and I call the basics scripture. Even many Protestant churches, big ones, have fallen away from the scriptures in their teachings. When I see clips from some of those sermons I really wonder why they are there on Sundays.

[Fichori]

Growing up, my family attended a few different churches and we found many of them to be lacking.

There was one church that was really good, but then the pastor moved on, and we never went back.

The same thing happened to a good friend, who afterward, was left wandering.

That happens to often.


Have you ever listened to Chuck Swindoll?
(listen online)

From what I've heard, he seems to be right on.

As far as getting back to the basics, I read a chapter in both the OT and NT each morning. (and occasionally listen to Swindoll in the evening.)
Does that qualify?

;)

[Forest Keeper]

I just look forward to that great and glorious day when we can all gather together around one table and raise our voices and proclaim, "G-17, I-5, O-12!" in one great song of Bingo!

I'll be there with you my brother! :)

[Forest Keeper]

It's a partial victory, but a victory nonetheless. ;O)

Yes. :) I am very thankful for what I have learned about your faith on FR. I think it helps me to understand my own faith better, plus it helps me to be more fair in discussing Catholicism with others. I know I have said things in the past without really knowing what I was talking about, and now, to some degree, I know better. :)