The Eucharist: The Body of Christ? ("Respectful Dialogue" thread)

Our Sunday Visitor (via Catholic Culture) ^ | 1/2005 | Marcellino D'Ambrosio, Ph.D.

[Quix]

I don’t have to be a Catholic to object to your childish imprecations.

= =

You’re quite welcome to respond with whatever perspective or description most suits you.

Of course, God’s perspective will be the important one . . . now . . . and later.

[Quix]

Yeah, I repeate . . . essentially groundless.

[pgyanke]

Christ indicated IIRC in more than one place that He gave HIS BODY—BELIEVERS incredible authority in His Name.

Yes, he did. What does this have to do with the specific authority referenced in my post?

[OLD REGGIE]

Yes, and tell me how Protestatism is dealing with this... They aren't! Tradition, Scripture and the Magisterium are mutually illuminating. You say that the Church is wrong to interpret Scripture beyond the obvious text and then throw this at me to bolster your opinion? The Holy Spirit is teaching through the Church. The Bridegroom is with His Bride and She reads to us and helps us understand the depth of the Love Letters.

I am not involved in how Protestantism is "dealing with this...". I suggest you address your question to "Protestants". I regard most of your reply as pious pap. Do you speak that way in your real life?

You seek any answer to Scripture that you don't understand. We seek to understand whatever the Spirit is teaching. You, however, will not be taught by us... because we are the ones doing the teaching. You create circular arguments!

Please. Enough of the doubletalk.

Uh, no. You are historically inaccurate. If you truly want to learn and not just snipe at what you don't understand you may read here on the subject.

Do you even bother reading the "proof" you link me to?

For example:

THE FACT OF THE ASSUMPTION

Regarding the day, year, and manner of Our Lady's death, nothing certain is known. Epiphanius (d. 403) acknowledged that he knew nothing definite about it (Hær., lxxix, 11). The dates assigned for it vary between three and fifteen years after Christ's Ascension. Two cities claim to be the place of her departure: Jerusalem and Ephesus; common consent favours Jerusalem, where her tomb is shown [Nirschl, Haus und Grab der allerh. Jungfrau (Mainz, 1900); Mommert, Die Dormitio (Leipzig, 1900)]; but in 1906, J. Niesen brought forth new arguments in favor of Ephesus (Panagia Kapuli, Dülmen, 1906). The first six centuries did not know of the tomb of Mary at Jerusalem.

The belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is founded on the apocryphal treatise "De Obitu S. Dominæ", bearing the name of St. John, which belongs however to the fourth or fifth century. It is also found in the book "De Transitu Virginis", falsely ascribed to St. Melito of Sardis, and in a spurious letter attributed to St. Denis the Areopagite. If we consult genuine writings in the East, it is mentioned in the sermons of St. Andrew of Crete, St. John Damascene, St. Modestus of Jerusalem and others. In the West, St. Gregory of Tours (De gloria mart., I, iv) mentions it first. The sermons of St. Jerome and St. Augustine for this feast, however, are spurious. St. John of Damascus (P. G., I, 96) thus formulates the tradition of the Church of Jerusalem:

St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven."

Today, the belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is universal in the East and in the West; according to Benedict XIV (De Festis B.V.M., I, viii, 18) it is a probable opinion, which to deny were impious and blasphemous.

Your "proof" shows nothing but fraud, legend, lies, and forgery. This you call an Infallible fact?

[pgyanke]

Never mind. Forget my name and post to me no more. Your last two posts make it very clear that you are not interested in open dialogue. I will waste no more time with you.

[Manfred the Wonder Dawg]

When the RCC - or any other ministry - proclaims dogma that is contrary to what the Bible does contain, then we have standing to discuss and refute. Such is the case with myriad RCC doctrine and dogmas, as have bee listed in this thread by Dr. E.

[Petronski]

Your "proof" shows nothing but fraud, legend, lies, and forgery.

Wow, you REALLY have it out for this belief...time to wheel out the four-times-slander.

This you call an Infallible fact?

Not at all. "Infallible fact" is your term. PG did not say that.

[rollo tomasi]

Historical facts don't matter. The Holy Spirit finally got around 1900 years later and spoke through Pius XII that if you assume the assumption of Mary and not point blank believe what the Vicar says, God, Peter and Paul etc... are going to get you.

It seems the Holy Spirit did not act through Peter/Paul/John at all about this important info which can damn you to hell and also the Popes until 1950. I often wonder why.

[OLD REGGIE]

If the Church doesn't do it... who will? Because the Bible is silent on a number of things...

Easy. Invent an artificial construct, call it the "Magisterium", and give it extraordinary power to declare anything as if it was directly revealed (in secret) by Jesus. Your artificial entity is now endowed with complete knowledge and power to declare anything it desires and can never be in error.

Oh! BTW, make it a shadow, non-human organization which cannot be seen or heard. This serves to add to the magic.

[Quix]

Historical facts don’t matter. The Holy Spirit finally got around 1900 years later and spoke through Pius XII that if you assume the assumption of Mary and not point blank believe what the Vicar says, God, Peter and Paul etc... are going to get you.

It seems the Holy Spirit did not act through Peter/Paul/John at all about this important info which can damn you to hell and also the Popes until 1950. I often wonder why.

= =

Excellent points.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply!

First, the question posed to me at 1351 included several parts which I answered together:

Mad Dawg: Please tell me again what you make of the "binding and loosing", the "keys", and the words of Christ in the upper Room on he evening after Easter Day. And there are also advices to toss people out of the Church, are there not? What do you think of them?

From your reply:

me: The binding and loosing is a duty of the assembly.

you: Yet, this authority was given expressly to the Apostles...

I realize this is what you have been taught, but it is a Spiritual error which is why I led my reply to the above question with this excerpt from Matthew 18:

Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. – Matthew 18:15-20

The paragraphs go together.

The bottom line is where two or three Christians are gathered together in Christ’s name, He is in the midst of them.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

And when two Christians - meaning filled with His Spirit, led by His Spirit (see above, Romans 8, I Cor 2, John 15 et al) - agree on a matter, it will be done.

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. – Matthew 7:7-8

And again,

Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them]. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. - Mark 11:24-26

Concerning the second part of your objection:

You distinguish in your post between excluding someone from the assembly and their eternal destination. However, Our Lord said that what the Apostles bound on Earth would be bound in Heaven. So if an assembly (as you noted) bound someone on Earth for their exclusion from the community, how does that then have no bearing on their heavenly reward?

I Corinthians 5:1-13 makes the point clear. I also mentioned Matthew 7, I Corinthians 6:1-8 and included Revelation 2:18-24 as an example.

An assembly which claims the authority to send one of God’s children to hell or the second death has presumed authority it does not have.

Those keys are in Christ’s hands alone:

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. – Revelation 1:18

And we have His assurance:

My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. – John 10:29

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 8:38-39

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. – Psalms 23:4

Again I say, any religious institution or person that claims it has authority to send one of God’s adopted children to hell or the second death is in grave Spiritual error.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. – Matthew 10:28

Only God sits at the Great White Throne Judgment:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. – Revelation 20:11-15

And again, the claim of authority and good intentions will not do:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. – Matthew 7:21-23

We, God’s adopted children, have nothing to fear by such claims of authority.

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us. – I John 4:17-19

Love God. Believe Him. Trust Him.

[pgyanke]

This you call an Infallible fact?

No, I call this a refutation of your ridiculous assertion that "the 'revelation' of the Bodily Assumption Of Mary was unknown to us for nearly 2,000 years."

If it were patently obvious, it wouldn't have taken nearly 2,000 years for the Church to recognize it clearly.

Our whole discussion boils down to one of authority. You put all authority to Scripture alone... but then how can you have One Body of Christ when so many disagree on what is plainly written?

I put my trust in the Church Christ founded to be the "bulwark and pillar of truth" entrusted to teach the principalities. Under her tutelage and motherly care, we have One Body.

I regard most of your reply as pious pap. Do you speak that way in your real life?

This is my real life and yes, I do. I'm sorry my language puts you off.

[Iscool]

The Bridegroom is with His Bride and She reads to us and helps us understand the depth of the Love Letters.

Who did they teach you the Bride is???

[pgyanke]

When the RCC - or any other ministry - proclaims dogma that is contrary to what the Bible does contain, then we have standing to discuss and refute.

I have seen precious little discussion and refutation on this thread. More, I have seen ridicule, profanation and slander. What has been posted has been under dispute, so I would say that we disagree... but it is certainly not unbiblical. There is nothing in the doctrines and dogma of the Church which are contrary to Scripture.

[OLD REGGIE]

Once again, the Protestant position is that if the Catholic Church believes it, it must be wrong.

Rediculous. Untrue. Ignorant. If you believe this you must be among those who "hate" anything Protestant. Hate enough to tell outright untruths concerning Protestantism.

I don't have to be a Catholic to object to your childish imprecations.

I don't have to be Protestant to expose your blatant prejudice.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The paragraphs go together.

The bottom line is where two or three Christians are gathered together in Christ’s name, He is in the midst of them.

AMEN!

Thank you for your wonderful, grace-filled, Scriptural posts -- enough to fill many Sunday School lessons. I learn from all of them. God be praised.

any religious institution or person that claims it has authority to send one of God’s adopted children to hell or the second death is in grave Spiritual error.

AMEN!

[NoDRodee]

Nice read, thanks.
I lost on the overall conversation but point well made that All Authority was given to Jesus, who also gave authority to speak His word only. Even if they (Paul) spoke any other gospel they would be in error.

On the Bread I'm lost on the OP’s point, Is he saying Jesus body was made of bread or the bread is made up of Jesus flesh.

Side note: I don't know why people have to interject the words (Catholic)into Jesus Church. It is His Church alone and needs no other description. It's not Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Protestant, etc... It's our Lord Jesus’ church.

[Petronski]

Easier: Invent an artificial construct, call it the “sola scriptura,” and give it extraordinary power to declare anything false which does not comport with your own personal interpretation of Scripture.

[pgyanke]

Oh! BTW, make it a shadow, non-human organization...

Ahhh... so you don't even know what the Magisterium is and yet you belittle it with childishness. The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church through the Apostolic College. It is not a "non-human" organization. You can read more here... if you really care.

[Quix]

Rediculous. Untrue. Ignorant. If you believe this you must be among those who “hate” anything Protestant. Hate enough to tell outright untruths concerning Protestantism.
I don’t have to be a Catholic to object to your childish imprecations.

I don’t have to be Protestant to expose your blatant prejudice.

= =

RIGHT YOU ARE, REGGIE, yet again.

Thx.