Posted on 04/27/2008 3:36:18 AM PDT by markomalley
BTW have you ever heard it sung, any time, any place, without the doxology?
Protestants beliefs in this, like many things are broad and varied.
What I found incomprehensible in the Presbetyrian church I attended was this... they do not believe in transubstantiation.. the eucharist is nothing more than symbolic.. but the church has a Pastor who had not yet been ordained, so the once a month that they had the eucharist, they had to bring in an ordained minister to perform the actual blessing of the bread and wine.
Now this to me makes no sense, if it is not transubstantiated, what does it matter if the person blessing the objects is fully ordained or not? Since the belief is they are not truly being transformed in any manner and are just representative.
And as a life long Catholic, going back after the service and seeing the children tossing the left over bread to each other trying to catch in each others mouths and tossing it up in the air to try to catch in their own mouths etc etc etc... was unfathonable.
Just one of many reasons, I only humored my wife on attending that church very briefly before returning home.
It is one thing to theorize about the Eucharist, and another thing to celebrate it. In the Episcopal church in which I was raised, we celebrated it once a month (”low” Episcopal). In the one to which I returned in my forties, we celebrated it weekly (”high” Episcopal), and also had lay ministers who took it to the elderly and ill. In the Catholic church, of course, I can attend daily celebrations.
But, I am not at all familiar with the practices of other Protestant denominations. Can you enlighten me?
I can't begin to tell you how happy I am that the Lord saw fit to strip the RCC of it's secular power. :)
Personally I've never seen any such thing, but I did know in my youth, altar boys who claimed to drink the church's wine and then add water to it so the priest wouldn't know. So now you have adultered wine for Communion, how does that work?
In the Unitarian Church I attend we celebrate communion once a month as a respectful remembrance of Jesus.
Christ saves us spiritually by His physical offering which has been "completed" and accepted by God as paying for all the sins of His flock.
And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.Luke 7:29-35For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
But wisdom is justified of all her children.
REDTETRAHEDRON: That's the Catholic Church's teaching.
Would that were true.
But that is not what the Roman Catholic church teaches since Rome maintains there is no salvation outside those who offer and partake of the Eucharist on a continuing, "perpetual" basis. There is so much error within the RCC understanding of the Lord's Supper it is difficult to narrow it down...
1324 The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life." 1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ. 1382 The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord's body and blood... 1383 The altar, around which the Church is gathered in the celebration of the Eucharist, represents the two aspects of the same mystery: the altar of the sacrifice and the table of the Lord. This is all the more so since the Christian altar is the symbol of Christ himself, present in the midst of the assembly of his faithful, both as the victim offered for our reconciliation and as food from heaven who is giving himself to us. 1323 "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet 'in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.'"
Again, the "victim" has already been offered and accepted by God as fulfilling the Scriptures and paying in full for all the sins of the elect.
The altar is not Christ. Christ is Christ who now sits at the right hand of God the Father in heaven.
The sacrifice of the cross is not ongoing and being "perpetuated;" it is finished (John 19:30.)
The sacrifice of the cross is a historical event. It occurred once almost 2,000 years ago outside Jerusalem (Mark 15:21-41.)
Christ cannot be made present in His death for He has risen and is "alive forevermore." (Rev. 1:17,18; Romans 6:9,10.)
And as Hebrews 9:24-28 tells us, Christ presented the sacrifice of Himself to the Father "once at the consummation of the ages."
No "other Christ" has the ability to change bread and wine into the very body and blood of Jesus Christ. That opinion is wizardly alchemy and something the Bible-believing Christian should reject as "vain jangling," or worse.
Thank you. Those verses affirm the Reformers’ position regarding the efficacy and administration of the Lord’s Supper.
Incomprehensible?... The wafer becoming Jesus Flesh, to be consumed by the Flesh, for Fleshly purposes, in a Fleshly ceremony.. is quite carnal.. God is Spirit and those that worship him MUST worship in spirit and truth..
The Eucharist MOCKs the Holy Spirits ministry.. as a doofus.. For "they" say the Holy Spirit transmutes the bread into flesh.. in a magical totem.. as a talisman..
The whole play of the Eucharist is playing church like children.. with a "pretend" character of Jesus.. Its the Holy Spirit that is treated violently.. Ostensibly ignored.. and made sport of..
It is not. It is Christ's instruction. You have trouble, with it, but this is nothing new.
Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard; and who can hear it? John 6:61
The priests were supposed to say "when" as the wine was poured, but they never said "when" until it was filled to the brim. lol.
True
...to be consumed by the Flesh...
Incomplete.
...for Fleshly purposes...
False.
...in a Fleshly ceremony...
Incomplete.
The Eucharist MOCKs the Holy Spirits ministry.. as a doofus..
Ridiculous.
Never? Until it was filled to the brim?
Sounds like a tall tail. By this telling, at his every observation, the cup was filled completely to the top. Riiight.
It IS true. We can't be held responsible for those with a morbid fixation for controversy.
No... bread becoming flesh(literally) is rididulous.,..
The Roman Catholic Church does not need the Holy Spirit..
And can and DOES operate effectively without him..
And probably don't WANT the Holy Spirit.. Except in effigy..
The Holy Spirit is a Spirit and NOT Flesh.. The RCC is Flesh and NOT Spirit.. Sad to say I believe most Protestant Churchs are also Flesh and not Spirit.. Where the Holy Spirit is ABSENT ALSO..
Only for those who learned their polemical style whilst jumping rope on the schoolyard.
The rest of us recognize the complete absence of intellectual integrity that resorts to such adolescent postulates.
False and quite absurd.
The RCC is Flesh and NOT Spirit...
You're just throwing grenades.
"This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." -- John 6:58-66
Christ is not the actual, physical bread, but the spiritual bread. And all whom the Father has given to Christ will understand this spiritual truth and believe this spiritual fact and know their salvation is by Christ on the cross alone.
Christ also said, "I am the door" (John 10.)
Does that mean Christ was made of wood and splinters and nails? Or is Christ the spiritual door His sheep walk through?
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