Posted on 04/22/2008 2:00:13 PM PDT by annalex
How's that "recognition" going?
“How’s that “recognition” going?”
You will have to ask God - He’s the one who recognizes what’s genuine.
Then why do there "have" to be factions? Wouldn't God know, anyway?
“Then why do there “have” to be factions? Wouldn’t God know, anyway?”
You would have to ask Paul.
Point being, Paul says factions are a good thing - because there needs to be a division of the genuine from the fake.
Paul scorns divisions based on identification, (I am of Peter, I am of Luther, etc) but supports divisions based on behavior (the sincere from the insincere).
I don’t know enough about Mormons, other than they apparently took a fraternity initiation and turned it into a gnostic (by which I mean, secret knowledge) religion.
I do know that God did not want to keep anything about himself secret, so the Mormons are seriously confused and have added a lot of crap to the Bible.
Do they still make the minimal cut stated by St. Paul? (who simultaneously warned about gnostic, same passage) —— I have no idea, and that is between the Mormons and God.
That is NOT what Paul is saying!
When I asked you to elaborate on two points, you sent me to God, then Paul, neither of which are giving unequivocal responses these days, instead of answering my queries.
Don't you think that would be pretty strong evidence you should leave the exegesis to someone else?
Not really.
Paul said we should strive to agree, but that denominational differences are inevitable -— in which situation we should effectively bend to the will of the “weaker brother” -— in that particular case, it was about keeping kosher.
This strikes home to me — a born Jew. I keep a very, very kosher household -— because otherwise my mother won’t come and eat at my house.
I, however, know it is not a salavation issue, but bend to her will out of respect -— and so as to not put a stumbling block in my relation with her.
Similarly, I know there is nothing in the Bible that forbids a drink of wine (although drunkenness is forbidden). My Church of Christ friends are horrified when alcohol is served, so we make sure we don’t serve it around them.
Non-core issues -— while you should hold them dearly —— should not be the focus.
There is PLENTY to study and learn about that is in the black print of the Bible.
“Then why do there “have” to be factions?”
Because men are imperfect and sinful AND because God has left much a mystery for us to strive to figure out. (The striving being the important thing, as it causes us to focus on God.)
“So do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?”
Not to butt in, but St. Paul stated in the Roman quote above that’s just not our business. The decision on who is a “Christian” is between each individual person and God (or, more particularly, Christ).
Is there are better answer to your question? IMHO, sure, and I bet we agree, but I (and you) are not going to be the judge -— Jesus the Christ is the judge and the Holy Spirit speaking through St. Paul told us to butt out.
Not being an apostle apointed by God, I do what I am told.
An entity masquerading as the humble Jewish maiden has led millions into perdition, and away from God. Again, deception is sweet, enticing, and easy to fall into. Satan rarely shows up in red tights, tail, and pitchfork. As the angel Moroni offering a brand new testament to the Savior, yes. As the apotheosis of a deified Bible character, yes. As the ghost of John Frum, yes. As spoon-waving "Phil, prince of insufficient light," not hardly.
It's amazing how convincingly "righteous" the demonic can be. A man realizes that, thanks to the web, he is now "findable." As he bikes into work, he is suddenly seized with the rock-hard conviction that, "thanks to God's mercies," he can pray with confidence that the other party to a broken romance from decades ago will get in touch, and pronounce words of healing, forgiveness, and restoration. And then, decades of emotional kinks and constraints will evaporate, and a new era of fruitfulness will commence. For the glory of God, of course. You may recognize some of the ingredients. The rationalizations. The preternatural certainty. The sense of light, energy, wholesomeness, healing. The temptation to fully embrace the fantasy presented to his heart, mind, and soul.
And, in this case, sufficient insight to say to himself, "You know, I was raised Catholic. This has left lesions in my mind, and a dangerous aptness to consider, and embrace, alternate feminine channels to God's grace."
When a little dog smells on the children the scent of other dogs, he trembles with anxiety. When this man toyed with the presented illusion for ten minutes, his wife was agitated and ill for a weekend, without knowing why.
There are consequences to indulging in untamed fantasy lives. Ask any porn addict. Compulsive gambler. Spiritist. Mariolator. Or, for that matter, any truly honest Christian. God gives us grace to walk with Him -- but the enemy of our souls offers us experiences more moving, more exciting, than humble faith.
Addictive deceptions are, let's face it, deceptive. And addictive. And largely immune to reason. May our God have mercy upon all of us, and lead us through His Son Jesus Christ, into eternal felicity.
“That is NOT what Paul is saying!”
It couldn’t be clearer.
“for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.”
***************
“When I asked you to elaborate on two points, you sent me to God, then Paul, neither of which are giving unequivocal responses these days, instead of answering my queries.”
You need to search the Scriptures to find the answers yourself rather than relying on someone to spoon feed them to you.
************
“Don’t you think that would be pretty strong evidence you should leave the exegesis to someone else?”
I think it’s pretty strong evidence that I’m not playing along with your game.
Actually, he said heresies are inevitable. Do you think denominational differences are synonymous with heresies?
I agree it would be ideal if we could all agree on the meaning of scripture. In heaven, I believe that will be the case, when all is revealed.
But I belive the text you quote is about belonging to cults of personalities (Ciaphus, whatever teacher of the day), and forgetting it is all about the gospel.
I would like to be a participant in a middle-of-the-harbor Bible study here on F.R.
There is much to learn that we all can agree on, regardless of denomination of Christianity.
The rules:
1. No one says what denomination they are from.
2. No one says “well my church teaches ABCDEF.”
3. Someone has the job of posting questions, from whatever source.
4. Everyone does their homework.
5. We answer the best we can, utiiling the Scripture, the Holy Spirit, and whatever outside aids we can use (e.g., from the Catechism to the footnotes in your NIV).
6. Only sinners are invited. Perfect people can go play somewhere else so we don’t feel bad.
Anyone game?
That's real nice, but it's not what the text says.
“Paul said we should strive to agree, but that denominational differences are inevitable
Actually, he said heresies are inevitable.”
No, it was Romans 14 quoted above by another poster, and has nothing to do with “heresies” but rather denominational issues.
Here:
“Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.”
Could you refreash me on that verse?
“No, just a mean Jew who accepted Christ, and tired of the crap.”
I submit to you that the “crap” on this board is actually a sign that people really believe what they claim to believe. The only people you will find that easily cast aside their theological distinctives in favor of “unity” are the liberals. The reason they set their beliefs aside is because they don’t really hold to anything.
Are the people really believe what they claim to believe actually right? In many cases probably not. But it may be in the (sometimes heated) exchange of ideas that people who really care about truth might come to see Christ above the dull dross of religion.
“Actually, he said heresies are inevitable.”
No, I refer to the Roman 14 text that has been oft-quoted, refering to non-core issues.
“Jesus the Christ is the judge and the Holy Spirit speaking through St. Paul told us to butt out. Could you refreash me on that verse?”
Sure, it already on this thread (bit more eloquent than me):
. . . For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written:
“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ “So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. . . .
I agree: it couldn't. Nevertheless, you did get it wrong.
You can not say something "must be" so that it can be "recognized," then turn around and say the only one who need recognize it is God, who doesn't need an indicator.
You need to search the Scriptures to find the answers yourself rather than relying on someone to spoon feed them to you.
I have the answers. I'm trying to demonstrate why you *don't* through probing questions.
I think it’s pretty strong evidence that I’m not playing along with your game.
More like trying to save face.
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