Posted on 04/01/2008 4:23:02 PM PDT by NYer
Works for me.
Why does it NOT show ZIP - — because you say it doesn't? (Do we have enough negatives going here?)
I think that the very few accounts of Jesus talking to Mary, we do not have enough data to form a conclusion about how He generally addressed her.
The Bible itself suggests that it does not have everything in it. John says what is in his gospel (Oh, please, it's a document; let's not tangle about how many gospels there are) is written so that you may believe, not so that you may have a compendium of all data necessary to determine every aspect of your theological or devotional thought and practices.
You make two statements:
(A)And you can 'argue' anything you want, the fact is that nowhere in scripture does Christ make Mary anyone special.
and
(B) That is a Roman Catholic myth built on the traditions of men, not the words of God.
The second does not follow from the first. Even if the first were true, it would not show the second. Other assumptions have to be made, other facts adduced.
I keep forgetting your theory of how sin is transmitted. Sorry. I really had never heard it before, so it's taking a while to sink in.
Kolo! Greek alert!
In Attic Greek (which is where my textbook is) there is a kind of "on the other hand" sense "δέ", but I have had a tough time (the last time this came up, some months ago) running down any sense of certainty about the particle.
Maybe Kolo or some other Greek scholar can give us some words of wisdom.
From other scripture, if not from common sense we know that Jesus was without sin and did not fall short. Yet that verse if taken literally would contradict that. Further, Noah, for example, is mentioned in the scripture as man perfect in every way, and Mary is described as full of grace. We conclude that the intention of St. Paul in Romans was to describe the overwhelmingly true sad condition of man, while allowing for implied exceptions.
Christ is most definitely Mary’s Savior, and given her fullness of grace before the Annunciation, I don’t see what other conclusion one can reach but that Christ made her sinless and immaculately conceived.
Okay, "whoever does the will of my father ..."
Mary did not do that? Did anybody hear the Word or serve the Word more than Mary did?
Ιδου η δουλη κυριυ΄γενοιτο μοι κατα ρημα σου. And she carried the child to term, gave birth, did the stuff mothers do. Mary did the will of God pretty intimately and thoroughly.
I am struck that you think that's the only time the Lord "corrects" someone any woman in the Gospels. I'd say that he "corrects" his parents in the temple and he sho' 'nuff brings the Syro-Phonecian woman up short.
WE Catholics think Jesus is THE Word of God. It is not IMHO "throwing up smoke" to have a huge chunk of one's thinking determined by the first verses of John. Are you suggesting that when Jesus Himself spoke to MAry she should have said, "Not now, dear, I'm reading my Bible." Do you think she was not attentive to the Word of God when she hovered over Him as mothers do and looked to His needs?
Well, that is a nice little theory, but it doesn't line up with what the passages actually say.Becuase you say so? (That was an argument you used when I referred to the text. I was wondering if it would persuade you? I bet not.)
Christ makes it very clear that the issue in the Christian life is following His words...
Well anybody who wants to be Jesus's Mom, who makes that the aim of his spiritual life (except in a certain sense as articulated earlier in this thread) is wasting his time. I think you are almost agreeing with what I said was the meaning of the Blessed is the womb exchange. The job of Mom is filled and we are not in any way let off the hook because we can't be His Mom.
Thank you for your tendentious and irrelevant aside about the Mass which shows nothing but that you have missed my point.Some are so sure I'm wrong that they don't want to understand what I think, because it ges int he way of their prejudices.
But when you want to avoid what scripture actually says, any reasoning will do.
Yeah. I can see that. And when one is so sure that one knows exactly what a Greek particle means and can conclude from that a highly specific meaning of a text then one thinks that everyone with another opinion doesn't want to see the truth. People are funny that way.
But maybe it would be better to avoid personal remarks.
You are absolutely right, MD. Indeed "δέ" can mean "on the other hand" in modern Greek too, but it also clearly can mean "but", though at least in modern Greek we generally use another word. In Luke 11:28 (not 26) the "δέ" most likely translates as "but" as would the same word in Luke 8:21. The "δέ" in Matthew is usually translated "yet" or "on the other hand". But bd, there is no intimation in the Greek that those who hear and keep the word of God are more blessed than Panagia.
Hey, I remember something!
Tuche'.. I stumble over the words catholic and church..
When these words are used my eye twitches.. and I walk funny..
Whos perfect?..
This only makes sense in a world where we don't know what words mean, so we constantly redefine them to fit what we want them to mean. IOW, we start by defining what "is" is.
The statement "all have sinned" can now be read to mean "well most have sinned", but not all because we have some implied exceptions. It's silly and sloppy thinking. It only exists because you church painted itself into a corner with all its extra Scriptural beliefs.
Christ is most definitely Mary’s Savior, and given her fullness of grace before the Annunciation, I don’t see what other conclusion one can reach but that Christ made her sinless and immaculately conceived.
Why? The blessing was that God would use her. It says nothing of transforming her.
So, Jesus has sinned?
The blessing was that God would use her. It says nothing of transforming her.
Not the blessing, the "full of grace" verse says so.
Several years ago, I listened to Christian radio a lot. One of the teachers was Chuck Swindoll, a well-known author and pastor. I quit listening to his sermons, because he read between the lines and because he assigned emotion. Since I was hungry for good teaching, I could not allow myself the wandering away from what the plain text said - no implications, no personal conclusions, no reading between the lines, and no reading of emotions into the text.
It’s not a teaching of the Catholic Church, yet you blame Catholicism for it.
Reading the text as the author intended is not reading between the lines; it is just reading. Has Jesus sinned?
Example, please.
“Ah, OK. This is important to understand: the Catholic practices and the Scripture are not in contradiction.”
That’s not what I said. What I said was “I never said your understanding was not consistent with the Roman Catholic interpretation of the scriptures.” Whether there is or is not a contradiction depends on the hermeneutic and the system of theology one is using.
2 Corinthians 5:21 (New King James Version)
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
But the question was has he ever sinned?
Oh yeah, and how should one pronounce blessedness. But I bet neither will be answered.
It is like saying “Shakespeare’s understanding of ‘To be or not to be’ is consistent with Shakespear’s interpretation of Hamlet”. Gee, thanks. I’d think the Church who produced the scripture has no need of interpreters.
Romans 3 also says about these “all”: “none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God ... with their tongues they have dealt deceitfully . The venom of asps is under their lips. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery in their ways: And the way of peace they have not known”.
Does this describe Jesus, you think?
For what purpose do you think that Jesus was made to be sinless?
Mad Dawg, I have no other pronunciation of blessed & blessedness than Webster's Dictionary. ???
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.