Posted on 04/01/2008 4:23:02 PM PDT by NYer
Again, I repeat:
I find it interesting that protestants individually pick and choose which statements are symbolic, which are literal, but seem to deny the same privilege to the Catholic Church.
As far as this goes:
>>>>The general rule is are you looking for the consistency of the application. IOW, is it consistent with other passages of Scripture.<<<<<<
Is that from “General Rules for Catholics”?
Was that a question?
The Mary which some think is the Mary of the Roman Catholic Church (and of the other Catholic Churches as well) is not in fact the Mary of the Roman Catholic Church(or of the other Catholic Churches). This leads to our spending almost equal amounts of time clarifying that we don't believe what people say w e believe and explaining what we DO in fact teach.
Any powers Mary has, just like any powers you have, are gifts from God and maintained by God's grace and by nothing else.
It would be a nice change to talk about what what the Church actually teaches rather than the splendid craziness we are accused of believing. Why we are expected to trust people to tell us the truth about God when they don't trouble to tell us the truth about ourselves is something I don't get.
It's like the cold call I got from a brokerage house: they lied to me about a previous call and then expected me to trust them with my money. The one thing they said to me that I actually knew something about was false, and they were asking me to trust them about what I couldn't verify.
Similarly with the Mary Ann Collins article, or whatever her name is. If "she", claiming to be a former nun, no less, doesn't understand or misrepresents papal infallibility, something which takes about 15 minutes to nail down, why should I believe anything she says?
Thanks. I have to go back and look at the web page. Every point was supported by Scripture. I thought it was very well written.
I would like to say that I at least attempted to address the arguments which Manfred put up
I kinda skipped thru because of all the static.
As I understand it, it is by your church's "Tradition" that the assumption, immaculate conception, perpetual virginity and ability to magnify prayers is based on. Ottofire posted an interesting thread today and on the section about Sola Scriptura the pastor mentions that "Tradition" is never said to be inspired in Scripture.
I am a Christian that believes the Scriptures are "God Breathed" and inerrant. Thus, if these beliefs about Mary are only supported by "Tradition" I don't put a lot of weight in them.
Do you believe Mary knew who Jesus really was prior to the Resurrection?
If you really want to understand Scripture it is a good rule.
“I don’t believe Mary truly knew who Jesus was until the Resurrection.”
Luke l 46-55
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid,
for behold from henceforth ALL GENERATION SHALL CALL ME BLESSED.
Because he that is mighty HATH DONE GREAT THINGS TO ME; and holy is his name.
And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.
He hath shewed might in his arm, he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of the heart.
He hath put down the might from their seat and hath exalted the humble.
He hath RECEIVED ISRAEL HIS SERVANT BEING MINDFUL OF HIS MERCY.
AS HE SPOKE TO OUR FATHER, TO ABRAHAM AND TO HIS SEED FOREVER.
Mary speaks not of herself but of the knowledge that her conception by the Holy Spirit as announced by Gabriel and assented to by Mary herself means salvation as promised to Abraham and his seed forever.
Luke: 1-67/69
“And Zachary his father was filled with the Holy Spirit and he prophesied, saying:
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; because he hath visited and wrought the REDEMPTION OF HIS PEOPLE.
And hath raised up an horn of salvation to us, in the house of David his serant.”
Zachary was a cousin of Mary’s by marriage and a Levite. He is speaking of the horn, his new born son, John, as the one to bring news of the salvation in the House of David.
Mary certainly knew of this prophecy within the family itself. In fact, since Zachary’s muteness was common knowledge along with his wife’s very late conception, a lot of people would have known of this prophecy.
73. The oath which He swore to Abraham our father, that would grant to us, that being delivered from the hand of our enemies, we may serve him without fear.
76. And though child (John) shall be called the prophet of the Highest; for thou shalt go before the of the Lord to prepare his ways.
Luke l 41-44
And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutaion of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the HOLY GHOST/
And she cried out with a loud voice, Blessed art thou among woman and blessed is the fruit of they womb.
And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
For behold, as soon as the voice of thy salutaiton sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.
Elizabeth pregnant with John the Baptist is greeting Mary as Theotokos, God Bearer.
To say that Mary didn’t understand is really to lump her in with other pregnant barefoot women trying to hide the cake in the oven because the ring wasn’t on her finger.
The thing that really caught my attention with that thread was the complete avoidance of what she had written and total focus on whether or not she was a nun. It's easy to see why she would want to maintain her anonymity.
Any powers Mary has, just like any powers you have, are gifts from God and maintained by God's grace and by nothing else.
Where in Scripture is her assumption?
Where in Scripture is her immaculate conception?
Where in Scripture is her perpetual virginity?
Where in Scripture is her ability to magnify prayers?
Where in Scripture are we instructed to make beautiful statues to her that we can kneel before and pray to God through her? It sure looks like worship, but RC's say its veneration.
IMMACULATE CONCEPTION [...] In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”. Mary knew that she needed a savior
Indeed she needed a savior, and she has One. Who do you think made her immaculate from conception? The redemption of the Cross works both forward and backward in time.
ALL-HOLY [...] Romans 3:23 says “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”. Revelation 15:4 says, “Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy”. Romans 3:10 says, “There is none righteous, no, not one”. [...] Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless
So, Romans 3, if taken literally, contradicts holiness of Jesus also. It is also not true that Jesus alone is described as sinless, so is Noah (Gen 6:9), for example. Romans 3 (and Romans 5, where it is clear from context which mixes "all" and "many") speaks in broad terms of generations of fallen man. There is no reason not to contemplate an exception here for Mary, John the Baptist, and possibly other exceptional people, just like an implicit exception is made for Jesus Himself.
PERPETUAL VIRGINITY
knew her not till
"Till" MAY mean that the situation changed after the event controlled by "till", but it does not necessarily mean so. There are several usages in the Gospel including in the book of Matthew of the latter kind. This verse does not say anything of Mary and Joseph's marital relations after the birth of Jesus.
Jesus had brothers and sisters
As you yourself note, the word could be used generically. It is not true that it cannot be used generically in Greek, especially in reference to a collection of half brothers, cousins, second cousins, step brothers, etc. which most likely was the case. It would be simply tedious to enumerate all these precise terms of relation when not even giving the names, and when it is not called for by context. In two instances where names are given, from another gospel we learn that the same Joseph and James are children of Mary Cleopas. The scripture certainly allows for the interpretation that Jesus had uterine siblings, but it also allows for the historically accepted interpretation that they were relatives of some other kinds.
MOTHER OF GOD [...] He existed before Mary was born
No one disputes that Jesus pre-existed Mary. However, Jesus is one person and Mary gave birth to Him. To say that Mary gave birth to His human nature but not to His divine nature tears in two Jesus as single person. It is an old heresy, that denies the essence of the Trinity.
MOTHER OF THE CHURCH
No contradiction is even alleged here.
ASSUMPTION
No contradiction is even alleged here. In addition, "There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary" is plain wrong, Mary is shown as Queen of Heaven fighting Satan on behalf of her Church in Apocalypse 12.
CO-MEDIATOR [...] There is only one mediator and that is Jesus
No one disputes that. If Mary co-mediated, say, Mohammed, the critic would have a point, but she leads to Jesus, Who alone mediates before God. A scriptural case for such mediation is the miracle at Cana, as well as the simple fact that Jesus came to us through Mary.
QUEEN OF HEAVEN
It is not clear where the alleged contradiction is. In the instance where Mary is venerated by a woman in the crowd, Jesus did not tell her to stop venerating Mary, but rather urged to venerate all saints as well. The direct prooftext for "Queen of Heaven" is Apocalypse 12.
And if I disagree, is that because I don't really want to understand Scripture?
Your statements attempt to define my "understanding" of scripture as necessarily being dependent on your definition of "how to." I am one of those Catholics who refuse to be so limited.
No it's not.
In the passage you quote She is thanking God for the blessing of being a part of His plan for Israel. It doesn't mean she had a full understanding of what was going on. If you read further:
Luke 2:49-50 And He said to them, "Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?" But they did not understand the statement which he spoke to them.
I think she knew Jesus was meant to do something special in God's plan, but did not comprehend who he was.
You believe Scripture is inerrant. So do I.
Where is the Trinty in Scripture?
God bless them!
Oh please. She’s visited by Gabriel, one of the four angels directly in front of God.
She is told she will bear “Luke 1 35
And the angel answering said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also THE HOLY THAT SHALL BE BORN OF THEE SHALL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD.”
Do you believe Mary knew who Jesus really was prior to the Resurrection?
I don't even know who I am.
I think Gabriel told her right much, but I don't think Mary knew all that it meant. I think the bearer of the Word, experienced Him as a continuing revelation -- something like that.
And check MAnfred's post again. Some points were not verified or indeed verifiable by Scripture - like her misleading references to Catholic doctrine.
"Ability to magnify prayers"? It's funny, but I odn't think of it that way. See, part of my lead in to the whole notion of Mary as intercessor is my MIL who is not Catholic and is very devout and, who can explain this, when she prays, stuff happens.
So I don't think of Mary goosing up my prayers so much as her ding what my MIL does.
Gotta go.
Of course she did.
“QUEEN OF HEAVEN
It is not clear where the alleged contradiction is. In the instance where Mary is venerated by a woman in the crowd, Jesus did not tell her to stop venerating Mary, but rather urged to venerate all saints as well. The direct prooftext for “Queen of Heaven” is Apocalypse... “
No contradiction, Anna. The title Queen of Heaven is foreshadowed in Psalm 45
6 - 11 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; the sceptre of they kingdom is a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness; therefore God, they God hath annointed thee with the oil of Gladness above they fellows.
All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the Ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad
Kings’ daughters were among they honourable women; upon thy right hand did STAND THE QUEEN IN GOLD OF OPHIR.
Hearken, O daughter and consider and incline thine ear, forget also thine own people, and thy father’s house
So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty; for he thy Lord; and worship thou Him.”
The Kingdom ruled by God is the same Kingdom ruled eternally by the Son of David. The Queen of that Kingdom is the Blessed Virgin Mary, The Mother of the Lord, God, Jesus.
No contradiction.
Ann is my wife. You can call me Alex.
Of course there is no contradiction.
Sorry! Thank you, Alex.
You find it throughout Scripture.
John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, For I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but he sent Me.
John 10:30 I and My Father are one.
But her actions don't indicate she fully comprehended what was happening.
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