Posted on 03/24/2008 3:36:37 PM PDT by annalex
Pull away. Please tell me what it is stating. I’d love to see it in writing.
You are twisting that language. It does not say what you mean.
If you knew anything about predestination, then you would know that I cannot sell you on predestination. You are simply predestined to think this way. ;O)
Please interpret.
Matthew says both thieves ridiculed Jesus. Mark and John do not mention the thieves saying anything. Luke says that one thief, by his comments, evidenced that he finally recognized Jesus for who he was and defended him, but that defense came after he believed. It wasn't the works that saved, but the belief. The justice of God demands that all sinners be treated the same way as far as salvation is concerned. If there are exceptions, even one, then God is capricious, not just. It leaves open the argument that those who never heard the gospel, or culturally disbelieved because of nurture should have another chance or have an exception to the plan of salvation thus devaluing the death of Jesus.
“The Calvinist approach I’ve seen here is that of some shabby lawyer looking for a loophole in some shabby rental agreement.”
Insult is an awkward homage which inferiority renders to merit. If you don't have the facts in your favor, use ridicule and insult.
The quote in red does not support your premise.
Sounds vaguely like The Matrix.
I'll keep that in mind if I'm ever in that position.
"Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Symeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who was a close friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." 3 Then, completing their fasting and prayer, they laid hands on them and sent them off.
Hope that helps.
What I said is the same as the position you cite.
Such argument indeed exists, it is called invincible ignorance. It does follow from the scripture, as you astutely note. But why, do you think, does it devalue the work of Jesus? If it were not for His Passion, no one at all would be saved.
I agree with you that the Holy Spirit is with us - the difference is, I think He resides directly in the Church, and prevents it from error. I don't deny that He may also choose to work outside the Church, but, in accordance with Scripture, He ensures the forces of Satan will not overcome and destroy the Church. Believe me, Catholics absolutely seek and hope for the Holy Spirit - we just believe He has worked through the past two millenia within the Church's bounds.
Sorry if this is a little late, and not directly on point with our earlier conversation. I had about 10 pings to me on this thread, and am trying to play catch-up!
I guess I don’t understand where you are coming from then. I see reason directly deriving from intellect, and logic a means of using reason. I don’t believe any aspect of humanity - reason, reproduction, digestion - as a creation of man, but a gift from God. Now, that gift can be abused - I think many “modern” philosophers do so - but that is a choice of man, not an innate disposition of God’s gift. I assume we are just starting at two completely different bases, and won’t be able to get to the same level to work from - please, if you think that is incorrect, let me know.
Just as an aside, now that I am back and playing catch-up on this thread, it was Acts 13:1-3 which I had in mind in my original post. Thanks for helping me out FourtySeven, and dan1123, thanks again for this conversation.
Well, that’s insightful.
“It does follow from the scripture, as you astutely note.”
There are no exceptions. God gave His Son as a ransom for sin. He is the only way, there is no other. His mercy was was poured out at the cross; His grace is extended now; but ultimately His justice prevails.
Paul says in Romans 1:18-20, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse”
Romans 2:11-12, “For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;”
No one is disputing that.
That was probably the Holy Spirit warning you! haha
Okay, so what's the Church? The Catholic organization, or the corporate body of individual believers whether or not they decide to be Catholic?
Back again to 'wherever two or three are gathered in My name...'
I'm really liking this debate by the way.
INDEED.
Well put.
Thanks thanks.
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