How Mormons Saw Romney -- In wooing evangelicals, he made some fellow LDS members uneasy

Newsweek ^ | February 8, 2008 | Sally Atkinson

[Old Mountain man]

Goodness me, but I don’t think I saw the word “acceptance” in there either. Looked like that thief took action, he spoke out and repented of his sins. Then the Lord had mercy on him.

[Osage Orange]

Not out of the realm of possibilities.........: )

[Old Mountain man]

Well, He was there when God revealed Himself to Joseph Smith. Power of the Priesthood and all that. Make sense now?

[lmiller007]

Thank you for proving my points. You won’t listen and are horribly uninformed and don’t appear to want to learn anything. I wish you well and the best in this life, and again, I appreciate your prayers. I will pray for you as well.

[DelphiUser]

U Said:

U Said: So "God told you that Jesus Christ lived in Israel"...did God also tell you that Jesus was born in "Jerusalem" as the Book of Mormon erroneously claims? (Alma 7:10). How could this be (as LDS leaders have claimed) the "most correct book on earth" if Smith couldn't it get right--yet Micah was perfectly able to do so prophetically well in advance?

This a really pathetic attempt to undermine faith. Here is the Scripture in "Question"

10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

So he didn't say the City of Jerusalem, he said At Jerusalem land of our fathers, which is actually correct in Hebrew. I Doubt they knew the name of Bethlehem as they had been gone many years, so this actually backs up the story because, he used sentence structure that would be correct for someone who spoke Hebrew, but didn't know where Bethlehem was because they lived in America.

U Said: So if I wanted to, I could pray to your god about where Jesus died, and if he revealed to me that he died in Los Angeles, that kind of "answer" receiving from him is A-OK?

This is a stupid question, for God won't lie to you.

Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable.

-- C.S. Lewis

U Said: DU, how many gods do you believe there are? ONLY “One” like Amulek and the Bible claims? (Or if LDS don’t like that answer, they can keep praying unto God until they seem to receive an answer they like?)

There is only one God, the God of Abraham and of Isaac, and of Jacob, this Godhead, is made up of three personages distinct physically from each other, but one in heart might mind and strength.

U Said: Which "spirit" was believeable--the one speaking alongside an angel to Amulek? Or the "spirit" speaking to Smith that led him to talk about many gods and a "council of gods" very late in his life?

Ah, are you asking of other Gods exist? Yes, the Bible wouldn't tell us not to worship them if they didn't exist, I believe people can make "Gods" to themselves of just about anything, money, Other people, Sports teams just for starters. But these are not My God for I worship the God of God of Abraham and of Isaac, and of Jacob.

U Said: Do you mean to say that if I pray to God about how many “Holy Ghosts” there are he might answer & testify unto me that there are many? (Why would we also need to pray about the clear things already revealed in the Bible? What? You accuse the Holy Ghost of being a poor communicator?)

It is no the Holy Ghost that is being a poor Communicator here, This series of Questions (that I believe to be purposefully missing the mark) reminds me of an episode of Cheers where Mormons came up "Why can't Mormons send flowers?" God will tell you the Truth continuing to pray will just get you more truth, I

U Said: DU, which version did you pray about?

Did you pray about the 1830 version? Or a much later version?

It does not really matter since aside from Punctuation and some notations made by Joseph the printer ignored they are essentially the same, but my first Book of Mormon was one of the paperback ones, modern paperback ones.

U Said: Did you pray about the 1 Nephi 18:18-32 1830 version (p. 25), or the 1 Nephi 18:18-32 reprint version where the “everlasting God” is edited out without you even being told?

Um, the Church talked about that a lot at the time, it was in Joseph's notes... See my comments above.

Now you are just being silly, King Benjamin didn't die and get resurrected, and him dieing earlier than his speech is not in the manuscript either.

As for the Book of Mormon being most correct, it still beat the Bible of it's day, so what's your problem? Oh yeah, a lack of faith.

U Said: DU, allow me to explain the difference to you of an “apostate” vs. a “heretic.” I’ve seen a few FReeper posts that say, “LDS call Christians ‘apostates’; Christians call LDS ‘heretics.’ So it’s a ‘wash.’” Here’s the problem with that statement:
First of all, somebody can be either aberrant or “heretical” in one belief but be orthodox on almost everything else. For example, a 7th-day Adventist could believe that EVERYBODY must worship on Saturdays, and that the only true Christians are those who reserve Saturdays for the Sabath…but they could be orthodox on most everything else. An “apostate” on the other hand describes somebody who has completely left his faith. Mormons are referencing us as a total spiritual wash!!! I don’t believe about Mormons, for example, what their “Scripture” says about Christians: That “ALL” creeds we hold are an “abomination in his sight.” Nor would I claim that ALL professing Mormon believers are “corrupt”—yet the LDS “Scripture” maintains this when it describes those of "Christian sects."
Finally whatever “names” have been called of others with different beliefs, you’d be quite hard-pressed to find chapter and verse in the Bible that would prove a direct linkage…there’s no passage in Revelation for example, in talking about the 7 churches, where it says “Oh, and this 8th church over here, the Church of Mormo, it’s heretical.” (That can’t be said of LDS “Scriptures” where it specifically references “Christian sects” as being “ALL wrong” and not worthy of joining).

While that's an interesting opinion, we have dictionaries which you are not in agreement with, I'll take their definition, thanks. heretic

1. a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.
2. Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.
3. anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.

And apostates:

One who has abandoned one's religious faith, a political party, one's principles, or a cause.

Thus, a Heretic is someone who rejects the Doctrines of his church, or the "Orthodox view" An apostate is someone who having been an adherent to a faith and or View decides to leave it. If I had to chose between the two, I'd rather be a heretic, for at least then I am not wishy washy.

You calling me a heretic would only be correct in the third definition of not being orthodox which I have admitted on many threads before this one, in point of fact Mormons are not Orthodox Christians, we are however, unorthodox Christians.

IMHO, calling names is just dumb, unless it's for effect, or humor.

As tot he LDS church and the "All Churches creeds are an abomination" I am not aware of any church that started without saying some other Church was wrong.

All protestant churches started by "protesting" the Catholic Church, the Catholic church has a similar attitude to ours in that all other religions are abominations. when I was a kid in the mid west, I remember some of the towns occasionally had these little running wars between churches, damning each others members to hell. Why get so upset about us, unless our declaration means more for some reason.

Things that make you go Hmmmm.

[Osage Orange]

Okay....I'll play.

Here's what I wrote:

Joseph Smith stated that without the ordinances and authority of the priesthood no man can see the face of God and live (D & C 84:21, 22).

He also said that he saw God in 1820 (Joseph Smith 2:17).

And here's what you wrote:

Well, He was there when God revealed Himself to Joseph Smith. Power of the Priesthood and all that. Make sense now?

Do you not "get" the timeline?

[DelphiUser]

Speaking of beliefs, what do you believe?

I believe that... In wooing evangelicals, he made some fellow LDS members uneasy.

I was already wondering about his Conservative credentials...

As to what I believe, I believe the rest of us are trying to paddle our canoes in a straight line, you just enjoy splashing people...

Hey you asked, you want a second opinion?

You're ugly too </Humor>

[Osage Orange]

Thank you for proving my points. You won’t listen and are horribly uninformed and don’t appear to want to learn anything. I wish you well and the best in this life, and again, I appreciate your prayers. I will pray for you as well.

Thanks Resty..........

Same, same.

Good-bye

[Old Mountain man]

I got it. Did you not understand that at the First Vision, both God the Father and Jesus Christ were present? Wow, I thought you had read that part. Now what part don’t you understand?

[nicmarlo]

I don’t think I saw the word “acceptance” in there either. Looked like that thief took action, he spoke out and repented of his sins. Then the Lord had mercy on him.

And if you read the Scriptures, you would know what Jesus said is required for salvation:

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He sent His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Acts 16:30-31: "What must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Jesus also said: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

Therefore, it naturally follows that, since Jesus is God, He knew knew this man's heart and mind (as well as that of the other thief). And seeing as how Christ Himself said to enter heaven, we must believe in Him, then this man did so, otherwise, Christ would not say to the thief "this day you shall be with me in Paradise," because that would then make Christ a liar.

For further readings (for lurkers):

The Cross Divided Even Thieves
J. Vernon McGee

These two men were there, hanging on crosses on either side of the Lord Jesus Christ. The cross divided the two thieves — and I do mean in the sense that one was on the left and one was on the right. But the cross also divided the two thieves for eternity. I have a question to ask you as you look at those men: What was the difference between those two thieves? Both of them had been tried before a Roman court, both were convicted for the same kind of crime, both merited capital punishment, and they both agreed that it was a right sentence. What was the difference in the two thieves? Years ago I asked that question in a summer Bible school and this towheaded, bright little fellow answered, “One of them was a good thief and one was a bad thief.” I am of the opinion that a great many people today think that was the difference — one was a bad thief and one was a good thief.

Thieves come in only one classification — bad. There is no such thing as a good thief. Both of these men were bad, and both at the beginning ridiculed Christ.

I have another question to ask you: To what church did the two thieves belong? What ceremony did they go through? Don’t misunderstand me, I was a pastor for forty years and I believe in the local church, and I believe in baptism, but what about those two thieves? They were divided. What divided them? I have often wondered what the liberal would have said to them. There was a liberal preacher with whom I used to play handball. Although we were friends, we were on opposite sides of the fence as far as theology was concerned. I asked him one day, “What would you tell that thief on the cross to do in order to get to heaven?” He said, “I don’t know.”

“Well, you had better hurry and tell him something, because he is dying.”

“I don’t know, I guess he would be the exception.” I said, “Don’t you think he might be the rule that is being set for time and eternity? Are you going to tell him to perform some good works with his hands? If you said that to him, you’d mock him. He would say, ‘Look, my hands are nailed to the cross, and they’ll not be taken down except in death.’ Tell me something else, would you tell him to run on errands of mercy?

That thief who started out ridiculing Christ, came to the conclusion that the One dying on that central cross was not only innocent, but He was dying for somebody else. In fact, He was dying for him, and He was in contact with God. So he in faith looked to Him and said, “Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom” (Luke 23:42). He had nothing to offer but his simple faith. To that man, whom society said was not fit to live on this earth, the Lord Jesus said, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). One thief went with Christ; the other went the other way.

[Old Mountain man]

He offered his repentence and accepted mercy. What’s your problem here?

[nicmarlo]

My problem? You are stating that acknowledging our sinful state and our sin, feeling remorse/regret for those sins, is “works”; it is not.

It is coming to terms with what we are by nature: sinners.

Realizing this leads to either accepting or rejecting Christ as our Savior. This takes faith. It is still not works.

The work thus far is by God, through Christ’s blood on the cross, and the Holy Spirit, working in our hearts and minds, “so that no man may boast.”

[Old Mountain man]

So, you claim that the thief did not repent?

[nicmarlo]

See my post numbers 538 and 550.

They are self-explanatory to your repeated question (which has already been answered).

Thanks.

[Old Mountain man]

Whatever. Glad you surrendered because the thief wound up working out his salvation in his humiliation with the Lord.

[nicmarlo]

Um no.

James differentiates faith from works.
Romans 3 says, “No man is justified by works.”

The “works” was all done by God in the case of the thief.
The faith part, alone, was that of thief, and even of our faith, that is credited to God, as well.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do “ (Eph. 2:8,9).

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

[DelphiUser]

Perhaps if they were explained by some of you adherents, or discounted as false or declared true, they wouldn’t have to be posted so much.

It's been done, Start with my page, then Go

• My page
• LDS.org The official site of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints
• FARMS - IMHO well researched answers to scientific challenges to the LDS faith.
• Jeff Lindsey.com - A web site with many answers to many of the kinds of questions I have seen posed here.
• New Advent - The Catholic encyclopedia online (this is a must for anyone wanting to research early Christian beliefs and records.
• A good online dictionary. Liberals try to change the meanings of words, let's be conservative in our language.
• Google, a good place to find both Mormon, and Anti-Mormon stuff as well as lots of papers written by people about religious topics
• A rebuttal of the tanners book

Come on, defend your faith, prophets, and doctrine or just say it is false, that which has been posted from LDS teachings.

We are defending, explaining, and it just does not matter, we lay everything to rest on one thread and the Anti's all jump over to another, also I'm doing this in my "Spare" time. I get behind on fast moving threads and just have to chug though the thread.

Sometimes the Anti's don't have the patience to wait for an honest answer, so they Get flip ones.

[restornu]

Excerpt; Good illistration on repentance
http://www.byu.tv/index.html?start=61622.457&stop=61991.656&show=&ep=http://qmplive.xlontech.net/byutv/stream/080219.qvt

[Osage Orange]

I know ordinances, covenants, truth and such mean little to those that are caught up in cults.....

No worries.....

I pray daily for you..........

[Old Mountain man]

Pray for yourself. I handle my own prayers.