Posted on 02/19/2008 11:55:18 AM PST by NYer
Conversions to anything (including Pentecostalism/charismania from anything tend to occur during a period of hightened period of existential/ spiritual/ emotional/ psychodynamic trauma, stress, intense searching.
Given that the particulars are always arguable vis a vis Scripture, tradition, reason, . . . whatever . . . it's clear to me that
1. Personality and where that personality is at that moment in time vis a vis the groups/ideologies on offer . . . will, to a very significant percentage, determine the degree of a perceived match/fit.
2. Folks tend to gravitate toward those groups [and I think it is more group vs ideology--that is--I think particular individuals and groups reaching out in warmth and love make an ideology FIT vs the other way around] . . . folks tend to gravitate toward groups which contribute strongly to their FEELING WARMLY SUPPORTED, ENGULFED, NURTURED, PROTECTED AND PARTICULARLY . . . TO FEEL FINALLY "RIGHT" in all "right's" implications.
3. God uses all such for His purposes. Sometimes folks GET IT and end up in a closer relationship with God--virtually regardless of the group gone TO. Other times, folks end up merely addicted, idolizing yet another group and ideology in a long string of grabbed objects in a long wandering.
Certainly this is true for the 100's of thousands, even millions leaving the RC edifice in South America for various flavors of Pentecostalism/ charismania etc. Though I think it could be strongly argued in those cases that
Leaving a group (the RC edifice) where there was a clear, evident "FORM OF GODLINESS BUT DENYING THE POWER THEREOF" for much more GOD FOCUSED, much closer, down to earth, warmer DEMONSTRATIONS of the power of God to meet individuals where they are hurting--devoid of rigid, narrow ritual . . . often devoid of human junk at all.
God's DEMONSTRATED anointing and power will always OUT-TRUMP ideology, ritual, magicsterical, !!!!TRADITION!!!!, arguments, rubber Bibles, rubber histories, rubber logic and whatever else dares to compete. The coming years will abundantly demonstrate this as never before, imho.
Nevertheless, there are "rice Christians" and potential rice Christians the world over . . . who jump one ship because humans and too often the enemy of their souls have convinced them that a different group offers a better deal; a better God-deal; a better chance to be loved, supported, protected . . . a better chance to BE RIGHT . . . usually because mommy and daddy didn't convince them tbey were quite right enough HUMAN-WISE the first 6-8 years of life. This will continue to be true for folks leaving Pentecostalism for Calvinism, for the RC edifice . . . for whatever . . . as it will be for SOME folks leaving such other groups for Pentecostalism and Charismania.
Always pretending that it's a function of a long string of carefully rationalized LOGICAL, TRADITIONAL, EVIDENTIAL constructs and questionable 'truths' and benchmarks . . . is . . . at best . . . dubious, imho.
Certainly some groups are more Scriptural AND WALK CLOSER TO GOD THAN OTHERS. THIS IS TRUE WITHIN EACH DENOMINATION/ 'RELIGIOUS CLUB' AS MUCH AS IT IS BETWEEN GROUPS. We like to pretend that our particular chosen RELIGIOUS CLUB has a corner on truth. And, philosophically, theoretically, ostensibly, logically, positionally, . . . that may be true, TO A DEGREE ON SOME SET OF ISSUES.
However, in practice . . . the rubber meets the road for most individuals and groups more or less the same as for other individuals and groups. The walking the talk is greatly lacking in ALL RELIGIOUS CLUBS--INCLUDING THE RC EDIFICE . . . sometimes seemingly especially the RC edifice. And the lack of walking the talk as Peter or John or Paul did . . . with healings and deliverances accordingly . . . is the same for all . . . human junk. Refusing to make GOD AND HIS WAYS SUFFICIENT PRIORITY to have His Health, Wholeness and Provision--routinely.
Folks do what they want to do when they want to do it instead of what God wants when God wants it. Folks fail to pray and fast sufficiently, including, me. Folks fail to put God and His ways utterly first in all their doings, too often, including me--though by His Grace, I'm much better than I used to be. Consequently, the anointing leaves; the miracles are lacking.
All this is true REGARDLESS of FORMER ANOINTINGS AND CALLINGS. This is true REGARDLESS of !!!TRADITIONs!!!; regardless of RELIGIOUS TIDY LITTLE BOXED lineages; regardless of rubber logic; rubber histories; rubber Bibles; regardless of how many grandpaws were preachers; regardless of what GOD HIMSELF HAS DONE IN THE PAST through a given individual or group or collection of groups.
The only conclusion I can come to is . . . ONGOINGLY SEEKING GOD FIRST AND FOREMOST . . . AND ONGOINGLY DOING HIS WILL FIRST AND FOREMOST . . . ARE GREATLY HIGHER PRIORITIES TO GOD than the brand name on the RELIGIOUS CLUB DOOR.
BTW, this color blue is brought to you through the courtesy of Mad Dawg . . . who requested it . . . wellllll . . . not quite . . . but sort of . . . I understand he was missing it. Tee hee.
BTW, pontificating rationalizations to the contrary are likely to elicit lots of GTTMs.
Thanks for the conversion stories. Becoming a convert after my marriage to a Catholic - I’m continually learning as I go through life. The conversion stories are powerful stories for me, personally.
I’ve gone through some tough times spiritually lately, so these are very timely for me.
Is that you, Paul? How are Suzy and the kids?
Amen, Wiley.
All of grace; none of debt.
“Arminianism at Home in Rome”
Couple that with...
Predeterminism at Home in Mecca.
Thank you for your kind words. Nearly ALL Catholics and Protestants I know realize that our shared beliefs far outweigh our differences. And from a secular standpoint, the conservative movement would be dead without the unity of Catholics and Evangelicals.
Best wishes to this young man. His discussion of what his family members believed about Catholicism, and their association with Catholics, sounds very much like what my parents describe from their childhood in the 1930s and 40’s. For all the talk about the “good old days,” it really seems like there were a lot of poorly catechized Catholics out there - and priests who were mean, drunk, or both. Not that this situation is unique to Catholicism as a denomination, or to that particular time period.
God bless you .... you are equating the supernatural with the natural. This is perfectly normal.
If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.
This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us.
The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.
There's more than one anti-Christ. According to John, the spirit of antichrist was already on earth and had taken multiple forms.
"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." -- 2 John 1:7 "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." -- 1 John 4:3
I think Calvin had a good take on those who would deceive and deny the power and authority of the Holy Spirit...
"The name Antichrist does not designate a single individual, but a single kingdom, which extends throughout many generations." -- John Calvin, II Thess. 403-404
From...
"...The Roman pontiff is now opposing himself to the reviving doctrines of the gospel, just as if his head were at stake. Does he not, by this very fact, demonstrate that there will be no safety for his see unless he can put to flight the kingdom of Christ? Your imperial majesty is aware how wide a field of discussion here opens upon me. But to conclude this point in a few words: I deny that see to be apostolical, wherein nought is seen but a shocking apostasy; I deny him to be the vicar of Christ, who, in furiously persecuting the gospel, demonstrates by his conduct that he is Antichrist; I deny him to be the successor of Peter, who is doing his utmost to demolish every edifice that Peter built; and I deny him to be the head of the church, who by his tyranny lacerates and dismembers the church, after dissevering her from Christ, her true and only Head. Let these denials be answered by those who are so bent on chaining the hierarchy of the church to the Romish see, that they hesitate not to subordinate the sure and tried doctrines of the gospel to the authority of the pope..."
I agree. I love both Mr. Wesleys and consider them great examples of Christian faith and life.
Please cite one example!
Can you cite any pope who would fit St. John’s description of the antichrist?
And while I recognize that John Calvin was a learned man (though I disagree with many of his beliefs), I also find it peculiar that an adherent to Sola Scriptura gives no scriptural evidence of the papacy meeting Biblical descriptions of the antichrist. Additionally, he seems to be speaking specifically about the pope in 1543 (Paul III), NOT the papacy as a whole and he clearly acknowledges the primacy of St. Peter.
Well, actually I'm trying to maintain the distinction between finite man and infinite God ... but I appreciate your response. It's helpful, though admittedly a bit over my "childish" head. :-)
Every Pope confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
In fact, every believing Catholic confesses that, every Sunday.
Contrast this to certain persons of the Protestant fundamentalist persuasion who have previously announced on this board that Mary was not really Jesus' mother. It is a tiny little step from there to a complete denial of the Incarnation.
That is the spirit of Antichrist that John describes.
As usual, Calvin plays fast and loose with both Scripture and the truth.
You can look at it from the perspective of physics: God, and the holy souls with Him in Heaven, are outside of “time” as we understand it - the definition of “time” being “a measure of change,” while we know that “there is no shadow or change” with God.
Therefore, questions about the souls in glory that involve the temporal limitations of people on earth are starting from a scientifically erroneous premise.
Some of the church fathers believed that the Antichrist would would not only be a specific individual, but would be a literal false Messiah. And not just a Messianic claimant who would fool a few, but a real counterfeit Christ who would have many followers. And they meant literal false Messiah-ship which would include all of the hallmarks: being of Jewish birth, claiming descent from the Davidic line, etc.
I tend more toward the idea that there are many antiChrists and always have been, and the hallmark of antiChrist is that people put their faith in him rather than in God.
Like, for example, people swoon and faint when he speaks, and he says things that are content-free, nebulous promises of "change" and such like, and he's born up on a swelling tide of media promotion ... but I digress. ;-)
They were praying for me too, Wiley. Now they just send me hate-mail.
Thank you for the post! Sadly, Wiley's post represents great ignorance. Much of his understanding of the Catholic Church is not based on fact but on what others have said about the Catholic Church. Though some call themselves Baptist, they are actually Fundamentalists. The belief that is first and foremost the defining characteristic of Fundamentalists is their reliance on the Bible to the complete exclusion of any authority exercised by the Church. The second is their insistence on a faith in Christ as one’s personal Lord and Savior.
"Do you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?" they ask. "Have you been saved?" This is unmodified Christian individualism, which holds that the individual is saved, without ever considering his relationship to a church, a congregation, or anyone else. It is a one-to-one relationship, with no community, no sacraments, just the individual Christian and his Lord. And the Christian knows when he has been saved, down to the hour and minute of his salvation, because his salvation came when he "accepted" Christ. It came like a flash.
In that instant, many Fundamentalists believe, their salvation is assured. There is now nothing that can undo it. Without that instant, that moment of acceptance, a person would be doomed to eternal hell. And that is why the third most visible characteristic of Fundamentalism is the emphasis on evangelism. If sinners do not undergo the same kind of salvation experience Fundamentalists have undergone, they will go to hell. Fundamentalists perceive a duty to spread their faith—what can be more charitable than to give others a chance for escaping hell?—and they often have been successful.
Their success is partly due to their discipline. For all their talk about the Catholic Church being "rule-laden," there are perhaps no Christians who operate in a more regimented manner. Their rules—non-biblical rules, one might add—extend not just to religion and religious practices proper, but to facets of everyday life. Most people are familiar with their strictures on drinking, gambling, dancing, and smoking.
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