Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
The effective call from God to those He has chosen caused the sheep to believe in the Lamb of God to take away their sin.
The goats are those who believe not. John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
From Rev 20:
“11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
*** I do have to admire their devotion to what they believe is the narrow path.***
Not the Reformed. They believe that they have the limo ride in luxury.
***I do admire their devotion to Scripture...to bad that it’s often reduced to bits and snippets rather than a coherent view of the entire message.***
Matthew Chapter 4. Even the devil can quote Scripture for his own purposes. Here, he even quoted it against Jesus during his temptation.
***What are we Bible-believing Christians missing by holding the word of God preeminent in our lives?***
Acts 8: 26-40
Without the Church, people are as the eunuch. They can read the words, but not understand them.
***The RC edifice was NOT around at Pentecost.
Revisionist history just does not wash with those truly exammining the UNRUBBERIZED HISTORICAL RECORD.***
The Catholic Church began at Pentecost; every other church is a construct of men that was cobbled together during the last few centuries (except for a few during the first half of the last millennium). We have the history, we have the Church Fathers, we have the Apostolic Succession, we are the creation of, and have the blessing of Jesus.
***But God has quite a different perspective from that of the RC magicsterical.***
Have you acquired the Reformed ability to speak for God?
***but only received the Bible and began believing it and applying it.***
Ethiopian eunuchs read and do not understand. They have the words but not the teachings. You may wish to peruse Acts 8: 26-40 for further clarification.
Really? Why? As a good "Bible believing" Calvinist, there should not be one word of Scripture that your unfamiliar with. That being the case, what good would it do to use what you have already rejected or misinterpreted in an attempt to help you see the errors of your ways? No good at all, at least that has been my experience.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. My side says it holds the scriptures as THE single earthly authority for Christianity. If you could "beat" me using scriptures, then regardless of whether I see the error of my ways, every reader should see the errors and you will be proved correct. You would be "beating me at my own game", so to speak. That is exactly why I sometimes quote from the Catechism. :) So, please feel free to use the scriptures in support of your arguments. There are many lurkers out there who could then consider what you are saying on a level they have more familiarity with.
FK: "... Instead, [the author] relates what he saw with his own eyes in terms of actual PRACTICE by Catholics."
No, he relates what he imagines he sees with his eyes, what he expects to see and what he wants to see. He, like not a small number of the Protestant contingent here on FR seem to have the remarkable ability to read the hearts and minds of other people as they pray. Uncanny.
Well, doesn't it sure sound exactly like the real idolatry that is described for us in the Bible? :
Deut 4:15-16 : 15 You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol , an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, ...
Hos 4:12 : ... They consult a wooden idol and are answered by a stick of wood. A spirit of prostitution leads them astray; they are unfaithful to their God.
Were not the people the author observed "consulting a piece of stone"? Presumably, they could have said the same prayer anywhere, but they chose to go to a stone to say it. I understand that your position is that the prayer is really only directed to the source of the image, but why do you choose to create the image? You know well that the Bible is full of examples of people bowing down to false idols. Why does your side want to LOOK exactly as they did, even if you contend there is a difference? Isn't that a great temptation? Can you state as a fact that none of those Catholics bowing and praying before statues are violating God's commands? Of course not.
And you're right that I can't read their minds either, so it is not my point to DECLARE them guilty. However, I do criticize the practice because it can so easily LEAD to exactly what God warned us to never do in the Bible.
You little rant about the Churches teachings and the ability of the flock to adhere to those teachings is pathetic, but not unexpected from a Calvinist.
Amazing consistency isn't it, considering we have 33,000 denominations going off in a million different directions? :)
The fact that some [Catholics] fail in some way to assent or conform them selves to the teachings of the Church have no influence on the truth of those teachings any more than the thousands of murders a year committed by people who call them selves "Christian" detract from the 10 Commandments. (emphasis added)
That's why I asked you who you consider to be "the Church". From your above when you say "the Church" it is apparent that you only really mean the hierarchy. The function of the laity is simply to obey these men, whatever they say. I actually have much more respect for the Orthodox position on this, which is in effect that no teaching or holding of any hierarchy is worth anything UNLESS it is accepted in practice by the laity. Kolokotronis even gave me an example of an official holding of a Council that was nullified because the laity didn't accept it.
Anyway, the attempted tie-in is that Latins are not taught to think about or question anything from on high. Just obey. So, if they are TOLD to bow down and pray in front of statues, then they do so even if they do not really understand why. That sounds like very fertile ground for error to creep in, don't you think? As must be true statistically, the quality of teaching by the local hierarchy may vary in quality to some degree in different places around the world. I took from the author of the article that in the places he visited the quality was relatively low. Other Freepers have confirmed as much from their own experiences. Therefore, given all this, it is not an outlandish supposition that some or many of those the author observed were in fact practicing idolatry.
Then I would suggest you study precisely what the Protestant church fathers had to say about the matter. They didn't seem to believe that their comments about the Catholic Church were a "noxious violation" of the 2nd commandment. And I can assure you they had far worst things to say then what we have said.
It is rather sad that most Protestants have forgotten their roots and why they left the Catholic Church.
I don’t recall anyone in this thread calling RCC Doctrine demonic. What was called demonic was the worshiping of idols such as the angel of death. I’ve asked whether or not THAT practice is RCC approved, but have rec’d no answer.
Yes, yes.... the gentlemen whose religious enthusiasms helped to foment the religious wars of the 15th-17th centuries are such a fine example for how we should deal with those with whose religious practices we disagree.
It is rather sad that most Protestants have forgotten their roots and why they left the Catholic Church.
And it's also rather sad to see "Bible believing" Christians like Pharisees.
LOL
The only “history” showing the RCC being around in the first century is that which has been made up by the RCC - which did not exist until the 4th century. There is no such thing as Apostolic Succession except for within the man-made doctrines of the RCC. There is no record of Jesus creating the RCC - He instituted His church by gathering together those He had redeemed.
How on Earth do you equate someone outside the RCC as the eunuch who cannot understand Scripture? This is ludicrous. The eunuch is a lost person who cannot understand spiritual Truth The RCC does not sit between God and anyone.
A TALE OF TWO BISHOPS
The degree of change which Constantine caused in the Church can be illustrated by looking at the lives of two Bishops of Rome. So let’s go back in history for about 100 years before Christianity became “politically correct,” to look at the life of Bishop Pontian. Then we will compare Pontian’s life with the life of Bishop Silvester, who lived during the time of Emperor Constantine.
(The following information about Bishops Pontian and Silvester comes from several sources. See Note 9.)
Pontian became the Bishop of Rome in the year 230 A.D. He was made bishop suddenly and unexpectedly when his predecessor was arrested and killed by Roman authorities.
On September 27, 235 A.D., Emperor Maximinus decreed that all Christian leaders were to be arrested. Christian buildings were burned, Christian cemeteries were closed, and the personal wealth of Christians was confiscated.
Bishop Pontian was arrested the same day. He was put in the Mamertine Prison, where he was tortured for ten days. Then he was sent to work in the lead mines of Sardinia.
The prisoners worked in the mines for 20 hours a day, with four one-hour breaks for sleep. They had one meal of bread and water per day. Most prisoners died within six to fourteen months from exhaustion, malnutrition, disease, beatings, infection, or violence.
Pontian only lasted four months. In January, 236 A.D., Pontian was killed and his body was thrown into the cesspool.
What happened to Pontian was not unusual. Many Christians were sent to the Sardinian lead mines, or persecuted in other ways. If a man accepted the position of being a Christian leader, he knew that his life from that time on was likely to be short and painful. There were 14 Bishops of Rome in the 79 years between the arrest of Pontian and the coronation of Silvester.
In 314 A.D., Emperor Constantine crowned Silvester as Bishop of Rome. Silvester lived in luxury, with servants waiting on him. Constantine confessed his sins to Silvester and asked for his advice. Silvester presided over worldwide Church councils. He had a splendid palace and a sumptuous cathedral. He had power, prestige, wealth, pomp, and the favor of the Emperor.
Churchmen wore purple robes, reflecting the purple of Constantine’s court. That was an external change. The most important change was an internal one. The Church took on the mentality of Rome. Under Silvester, the internal structure of the Church took on the form and practice and pomp of Rome.
Silvester died in December, 336 A.D. He died peacefully, in a clean, comfortable bed, in the Roman Lateran Palace. He died surrounded by well dressed bishops and priests, and attended by Roman guards. His body was dressed in ceremonial robes, put in an elegant casket, and carried through the streets of Rome in a solemn procession. He was buried with honor and ceremony, attended by the cream of Roman society and by the Roman people.
It is understandable that many Christians would have preferred an officially approved status for the Church. But what was the result?
Before Constantine, the church was a band of heroic men and women who were so committed to serve the Lord Jesus Christ that they would endure any hardship. After 314 A.D., the Church became infiltrated by opportunists who were seeking power and political advancement. Church leaders were no longer in danger of persecution. Rather, they enjoyed all the trappings of power and luxury.
Historian Paul Johnson asks, “Did the empire surrender to Christianity, or did Christianity prostitute itself to the empire?” [Note 9]
The temptation for an ungodly alliance with Rome was very great. But at what cost?
1. Malachi Martin, “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church” (New York: G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1981), pages 31-33. A major theme of this book is the radical change which occurred in the Church as a result of Constantine. The author was a Catholic priest and a theologian.
2. Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity” (New York: Touchstone, Simon & Schuster, 1995), pages 67-68. Paul Johnson is a Catholic and a prominent historian.
3. Malachi Martin, “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church,” page 33; and Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity,” page 67. Information about the days of the week being named for pagan gods and goddesses can be found in a good dictionary. Look up each day of the week, and “Saturn”. I used “Webster’s Dictionary,” 1941 edition, which gives the origins of words.
4. Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity,” pages 68-69.
5. Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity,” page 69.
6. Malachi Martin, “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church,” pages 33-34.
7. Malachi Martin, “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church,” pages 34-35.
8. James G. McCarthy, “The Gospel According to Rome” (Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House Publishers, 1995), pages 231-232. James McCarthy is a former Catholic
9. Claudio Rendina, “The Popes: Histories and Secrets” (Santa Ana, California: Seven Locks Press, 2002), pages 29 and 41-45. Richard P. McBrien, “Lives of the Popes” (San Francisco, California: Harper Collins Publishers, 1997), pages 45-46 and 57-58. Hans Kung (translated by John Bowden), “The Catholic Church: A Short History” (New York: Modern Library: 2001, 2003), pages 33-44. Malachi Martin, “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church,” pages 19-38. Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity,” pages 67-69 and 99-103. (The quotation is from page 69.)
Love can come in many forms.
This is why your assembly gets so much grief. You really need to drop that millstone of works.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live."
Roms. 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Works are a reflection, a mirror if you will, of Faith. A believer indwelt by the Holy Spirit will reveal, to all that look, fruits of the Spirit.
John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;...
If your works were buying even a tiny portion of the gift of Grace you would make Jesus' sacrifice at the Cross insufficient for your Salvation.
You sound more like Erasmus than Luther. Paul didn't have a problem telling Peter, James, and John they were wrong and stood condemned. Rather harsh words for a newbie.
And it's also rather sad to see "Bible believing" Christians like Pharisees.
There's something rather disingenuous about someone criticizing another believer for not being as loving and understanding as they are.
I haven't read all the posts so I can't confirm that at this point. I will say people give far too much credit to the devil for their own actions. All Satan has to do is nudge us and people are willing to do what he wants. We are sinful creatures by instinct and we are willing to move in that direction.
Those of us who have received God's grace should understand this dilemma. The old man is constantly waring against the new.
What I find so interesting and easy to over look is it is the other books that have the works in them. The book of life only has names, not works.
DEAR DEAR BRO,
You’re about to bring tears to my eyes yet again.
Thanks for your excellent post of authentic UNRUBBERIZED history.
I’m not so diligent at all about digging such stuff up.
I’ve read enough to know the broad outlines of such truths and have had them confirmed in my sprit as well as with my cursory readings. But it’s a great welcome blessing to see such a scholarly input as yours I’m replying to.
Thanks enormously.
Blessings to you and yours this New Year.
THE CHURCH UNIVERSAL
IS FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
from equal to the RC edifice
by a long list
on a long list
of factors, variables.
. . . . Historically verifiable, Biblically verifiable.
***When you hear them say, “there is no bible without the Romanist Church”,***
I challenge you to present a single post that says this. One, just one. Go ahead, prove our day.
= = = =
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, I wonder if the RC edifice reps would be willing to own by how many nanometers they missed such a statement by?
I’m beginning to think some barf warnings are in order for such posts.
Thankfully, such has NOT been God’s perspective, else He’d not have confirmed with such dramatic signs following over the centuries and abundantl in our era.
My 10th anniversary at FR is in May. Newbie.
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