Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
I strongly agree that the "observer problem" applies universally - and thus, in matters of faith, it is not unusual for a mere mortal to project his own perceptions and reasoning onto God rather than simply believing Him and only Him.
When he does this, he anthropomorphizes God into a small "god" of his own imagining, some “thing” he can wrap his mind around and which seems reasonable to him. And if he is charismatic – or a good marketer - he may gather followers.
Some of these “contrived” beliefs ended in tragedy:
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. – Mark 7:5-9
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. – Matthew 23:13
And some with apparently no ill motive – cannot see the difference (borrowing here from an earlier post by DouglasKC:)
And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which [are] in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring [them] unto me. And all the people brake off the golden earrings which [were] in their ears, and brought [them] unto Aaron.
And he received [them] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
And when Aaron saw [it], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow [is] a feast to the LORD. – Exodus 32:4-5
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. – John 10:1-15
To God be the glory!
***Are you not required to be baptized?
Not to be saved.
Mark 1:8 I indeed baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.***
That really doesn’t answer the question, wmf. I asked if a Christian needed to be baptized to be saved. Let’s see what Matthew says:
Matt 28:
18
Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
I think that this command is pretty direct and we need to observe it.
***Unfortunately for you it always goes back to works. It’s to bad after all these threads and posts that you don’t understand the non RC’s.***
I understand Christianity and what Jesus instructed us to do. His commands are just that - commands. His instructions are just that - instructions. We don’t get to edit Scripture in the fashion of the Protestants. We have to accept it all. Jesus issued over 100 commands; they are not just suggestions.
***I can understand the reverse since the books containing your rules and regulations are thicker than Scripture itself.***
They are not mine; that is a viewpoint that we have that is normally very different than the Protestants. It is not MY Church; He is not MY God: the Church is His creation, and I am His creature. I am so very grateful that He has allowed me to follow Him and be a part of His Creation and His Church.
Quite so.
Quite so.
And you model all that better than I do my ideals.
Thanks tons.
***Boasting with words about the “indwelling spirit” or being the “mouthpiece of God” or being “saved by faith” are just empty words that prove nothing. Words are cheap. Real believers will live a life through which people we recognize Christ in them.***
Very well expressed, sir.
We are supposed to evangelize; however evangelization by folks such as Jimmy Swaggart takes on an evil hue once the actions of the individual are brought to light and often do more to harm Christianity than help.
You guys are in some serious trouble if this is required for salvation. Your practice of infant baptism has it backwards. In Scripture those that are baptized always believe first. Infants don't have that ability.
***You guys are in some serious trouble if this is required for salvation.***
I think that both Matthew and Saint Augustine had it correct, along with the Church Fathers.
***Your practice of infant baptism has it backwards. In Scripture those that are baptized always believe first. Infants don’t have that ability.***
Let me elaborate a little. Infant baptism is for us a two part deal. Water baptism is done on infants in order to claim that child for Christ and to invite the Holy Spirit to come into him with His Grace in order for that child to develop to the point of maturity in the faith where they can believe and become full Christians.
The next step in the baptismal process is confirmation in which the matured child confirms that baptismal process.
An adult is baptized and confirmed in one step.
***All of Creation is destined for theosis through the Incarnation! Tell me, Kosta mou, why wouldn’t there be a blessing for everything? :)***
All is God’s Creation. It was blessed into be being in the first place; why wouldn’t further blessing be appropriate as well?
That's a strange way to put it, but is it indicative of the Protestant/Baptist christology?
Yes. All I mean by this is that God does not make things up as He goes along. In Apostolic terms, if all time is "now" to God then everything that happened was intentional. God did not "wait to see what happened" and then react accordingly. Christ's divine nature/essence was never at odds with the Father's since it is the same.
FK: "Jesus said He came to save, but under Apostolic thought no one was saved because He came."
No, everyone was "saved" in a sense that everyone was offered a ticket to eternity who wanted it. But God was not about to carry anyone and the luggage to His train.
That renders the word "saved" to be meaningless, at least in the English. "Conditionally offer to save" is NOT "saved". If I now offer to paint your house for $1,000, your house is no more painted now than it was a minute ago. That's why the Apostolic view does not match what scripture actually says.
Then what was +Paul preaching? Was Christ's own ministry not sufficient? And was His prophesy not the end of prophesies, but required a new revelation?
Paul preached that salvation is had by grace through faith, and NOT by works. I.e., that for all those Christ died for, all would be given grace and all would believe. Paul also preached about sanctification, a different subject.
Forced conversion? Forced love?
I don't look at it that way, but if the choice was between that and relying on my inner goodness and how super smart I am to make the right decisions, I'll take being forced any day of the week. I would never be able to effect my own salvation the way you all do.
FK: "Then I shutter to ask what your opinion is of the OT."
Ambivalence. It is quite alien. In some respects even pagan.
Then I AM shuttering. :) But, thanks for the straightforward answer.
FK: "You're only laughing at the words of Jesus Himself IN the Gospels: Matt 10:19-20 : But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it...but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you."
Well, apparently none, save for +John, had the "eyes" and "ears" enough to receive instructions in this manner, let alone faith and courage to face whatever for the Lord.
We all know that it is possible for perfectly good Christians to have temporary lapses in faith. Peter proclaims Jesus to be "the Christ, the Son of the living God". This was a confession of Jesus' divinity. But then later, Peter denies Him and scatters at the time of the crucifixion. Was Peter lying? No, because Jesus validates the statement as having been revealed by the Father.
There were divisions for sure,but the divisions of Apostolic Christians were worked out within the Church,not outside of it.
The Church has needed reform and HAS been reformed throughout its history ,but reform does not constitute breaking away from the Church and forming other so called Churches.
Those who broke from the Church were the heretics who out of pride made themselves their own authority. They were the ones who denied Christ's divinity and so forth.
Using the argument that the early Christians were divided to try and justify the protestant reformation is not any different than what the arians and others were doing.
They are one in the same,all grounded in self pride.
"Accurately," according to whom, FK?
Accurate according to the words and meaning of the source of the quote.
I understand, but it is not the Scriptural model. It is the invention of men with very elaborate reasoning behind it.
The Scriptural model is not explicit when referring to infant baptism. In the NT, whole households were baptized - not whole households minus the infants - and so therefore there is precedence.
It is the development of the Church that the infant model needed to be taken to the point where the necessity of baptism be given to all as soon as is practicable, and yet have that requirement that belief be in place. Thus, the split in the Church between the moment of baptism and the acknowledgement of those mature enough to be able to confirm that they are willing to be baptized.
You must remember that Jesus left us His Church; that Church is the teaching institution and there is no other outside of private revelation of the Holy Spirit. We examine the proofs of private revelation in order to determine their accuracy or even origin, but we are subordinate to the Holy Spirit. We have not made God in our own image, as is the apparent practice of many Protestants, especially the Calvinists.
***It is the invention of men with very elaborate reasoning behind it.***
We must also differentiate between the doings of individual or groups of men and the Church.
That by itself should be the deciding factor between choosing the words of Calvin (or Luther or Mary Baker Eddy or Joseph Smith or Jimmy Swaggart) and those of the Church.
No, I must remember that Jesus left us the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures so any church making claims of exclusivity can be easily rebutted and upside down doctrines such as two stage baptism can be seen for what they are.
What underground economy? If you penalize greedy and unethical businesses that hire illegals, sooner than later the source of jobs for the illegals will dry up.
I mean cash under the table stuff, like small landscaping/lawn care, small diner cooks, mom and pop motel work, and drug smuggling. I agree that workers for "big agriculture" might be out of work and have to leave, but there will still be some opportunities for those who stay. I'd rather do everything we can to prevent them from coming here illegally in the first place. Other than this I basically agree with the rest of your post.
***MB: You must remember that Jesus left us His Church; that Church is the teaching institution and there is no other outside of private revelation of the Holy Spirit.
wmf: No, I must remember that Jesus left us the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures so any church making claims of exclusivity can be easily rebutted and upside down doctrines such as two stage baptism can be seen for what they are.***
Really? Tell me: what Scripture did Jesus leave? I only recall one instance of Jesus writing and that was in the sand. Most of the OT (except for the Epistles, of course) were written many many years after Jesus Ascended to Heaven.
Pray enlighten me, if you would. And then, if possible, pray enlighten me of the Church’s role within wmf’s theology.
Ahem.
That was the NT, not the OT.
mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...
Are you saying that Jesus is subordinate to God?
No, I just mean that Christ did not come here to be a free-lancer. By never sinning He did everything God wanted Him to do. We know for sure that Jesus said He came here to obey the will of the Father, and we know that Jesus asked for the cup to be taken from Him. So, it sounds to me that the humanity in Jesus DID submit. However, He was also still God in the flesh.
FK: ***Then I shutter to ask what your opinion is of the OT.***
An oral history of God trying to get the Jews to be saved.
If "of God" is the same as "from God" then we have a good starting point. :)
FK: ***Nothing needs to top the Gospels. All scriptures are equally true.***
But some are more important. A historical list of begats is not as important to our beliefs as, for instance, the Sermon on the Mount.
When we say "important" we must ask "important to what"? It is natural for us to say that the issue of salvation is "more important" than the issue of some of the statistics given in Numbers. So, I don't argue with someone who says that the Gospels are "more important" for that issue. I'm just saying that God still wanted us to know those passages in Numbers, and they are still true. There are things to be learned that are important in other areas.
The only ones who will "recognize Christ in them" are those whom have been likewise given eyes to see and ears to hear by God alone.
It all gets back to God and His perfect gifts to whom He chooses. He loved us before we loved Him.
If you don't recognize the good fruits of the Holy Spirit, that's quite a loss.
Words are cheap.
Some men's words might be "cheap," but the words of God are not...
Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh." -- Proverbs 4:20-22
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." -- John 6:63 "My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.
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