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Answering the "Replacement Theology" Critics (Part 1)
American Vision ^ | 10/7/2005 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 10/26/2007 9:00:59 PM PDT by topcat54

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To: Quix

***I guess I should edit my affirmed text more.***

Ya think?!!!

***Though technically, he probably has a point on that score. Will we be known as Christians or children of God?***

I’m sure in the delirium known as Dispensationalism there is some significant distinction between “Christian,” a mere derisive label by those not the children of God, and “children of God.” I’m actually all a tingle as to why you think this is significant. I’ll probably regret the answer later, but I am curious at the moment.

***I still don’t know of a single Dispy who believes that.***

Ok, one more time...
There were no Christians in the Old Testament and there will no Christians after the Rapture, since only Christians make up the bride of Christ (Eph.5:30) ~ post 198

If only Christians get to be joined to the Messiah, then every OT saint and every saint from after the “Rapture” will NEVER be joined to the Messiah. This means that such prefigures of Christ such as David will NEVER have their long looked for Messiah. But, there is this cool consolation prize: dirt.

God to Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, David, et. all.: Sorry, but you will never be joined to the Messiah. But, there is this cool consolation prize. Gabby (Gabriel), open door #2 and let’s show them the dump truck full of what they get to have for all eternity.


221 posted on 11/06/2007 12:36:54 PM PST by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Lord_Calvinus

I increasingly see that Replacementarians are from the school of theology Dr Walter Martin talked about . . . illustrated by the old saw . . .

Can God create a rock too big for Him to move.

God is NOT into nonsense.

Maybe it’s my fever or some such but I’ve about had my fill of such nonsense for the moment.

Outrageous.


222 posted on 11/06/2007 12:54:54 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: XeniaSt
YHvH's larger plan of salvation, where His People are blinded for a time, in order to bring His salvation to the gentile nations.

Amen.

223 posted on 11/06/2007 1:01:28 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: fortheDeclaration

“An Idol being put in after the destruction is not what Matthew says.”

Take that argument up with Martin Luther, for he was the one who made that statement.

Martin Luther knew both Luke and Matthew weren’t about some future “third” temple event because he obviously knew that there is no “third” temple mentioned anywhere in the Bible, and for very good reason — because Christ is the Temple.

Read Matthew 24 and Luke 21 again objectively. If you do that, then you will see that both Gospel writers were relating the same message, the same warning, the same signal to flee the city — i.e. the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and the end of the Mosaic Age (not the “end of the world” as people like LaHaye would have you believe).


224 posted on 11/06/2007 1:06:38 PM PST by tabsternager
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." -- Romans 9:6-8 Why would anyone continue to glorify the children of the flesh when it is the children of the promise who are counted for the seed, the elect of God?

Are you sure that you understand what you are quoting???

Romans 9:7 says: "Neither, because thay are the seed of Abraham are they all children, but in Isaac shall thy seed be called".

Ishmael was the child of the flesh. Isaac was the child of promise and all the 12 tribes descended from Isaac.

225 posted on 11/06/2007 1:11:49 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip; Dr. Eckleburg
Isaac fathered Jacob and Esau. Esau is not a child of the promise. Likewise not all descendents of Israel are Israel, or in other words, the flesh prevaileth nothing, it is the Spirit that saves.
226 posted on 11/06/2007 1:19:45 PM PST by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: Uncle Chip
The children of the flesh are not counted for the seed because no bloodlines avail us of anything. The children of the promise are all those given faith by God, from among all nations and races and bloodlines, according to His will.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." -- Galatians 3:28

227 posted on 11/06/2007 1:35:12 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Uncle Chip; Dr. Eckleburg

Notice in Romans 9:2-4, Paul talks about his sorrow over those of his own race:

9:2-4 “I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.”

Why do you suppose he was in such distress if “all Israel will be saved” (as dispensationalists interpret the phrase)?

Again, just two verses later:

Romans 9:6: “It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.”

Paul was distraught over those of his own race rejecting Christ and he made the point that their bloodline didn’t make them Israel.


228 posted on 11/06/2007 1:54:09 PM PST by tabsternager
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." -- Galatians 3:28

I don't know about you but I have never been in a church yet that didn't have males and females in it ...

229 posted on 11/06/2007 1:55:09 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: 1000 silverlings
Isaac fathered Jacob and Esau. Esau is not a child of the promise.

But like Isaac, Jacob was also the child of promise [that the elder shall serve the younger]. Ishmael and Esau were children of the flesh, but Isaac and Jacob [Israel] were children of the seed of Abraham as well as children of God's promise.

or in other words, the flesh prevaileth nothing, it is the Spirit that saves.

And that Spirit says:

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I [Paul] also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, the tribe of Benjamin" [Romans 11:1]

230 posted on 11/06/2007 2:05:39 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
I don't know about you but I have never been in a church yet that didn't have males and females in it ...

Yes, and some men are bonded and some men are free. But what is Paul saying to us here -- that there is no indenture and we're all one sex?

No, he's saying labels don't mean anything. Distinctions don't mean anything. The ONLY thing that matters now and forever is God's grace through faith in Christ.

"All one in Christ Jesus."

231 posted on 11/06/2007 2:07:58 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Uncle Chip; 1000 silverlings; tabsternager; Lord_Calvinus; topcat54
"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I [Paul] also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, the tribe of Benjamin" [Romans 11:1

His people are not the disbelieving Jews whom Paul laments. His people are those God has graced with faith.

Tabsternager in post 228 states it clearly...

Notice in Romans 9:2-4, Paul talks about his sorrow over those of his own race:

9:2-4 "I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel.

Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises."

Why do you suppose he was in such distress if "all Israel will be saved" (as dispensationalists interpret the phrase)?

Again, just two verses later:

Romans 9:6: "It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

Paul was distraught over those of his own race rejecting Christ and he made the point that their bloodline didn't make them Israel.

232 posted on 11/06/2007 2:19:37 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: tabsternager
Romans 9:6: “It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.”

I think Paul is saying that a Jew is a Jew from the heart, from the inside out, who values his heritage, knows where he came from, and followed in the ways of his people -- not just someone who had Jewish blood. Many back then and throughout history have been Jewish in name and blood only and cared little about Torah, and Moses, and Isaiah, their heritage, their covenants, and the promises to them, the things that made them uniquely Israel before God.

233 posted on 11/06/2007 2:20:15 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip

Gosh, I think that is a terrible reading of the Gospel. Paul isn’t criticizing Jews for not being better Jews. He’s criticizing Jews for not believing in the only name that saves, Jesus Christ.


234 posted on 11/06/2007 2:24:02 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
His people are not the disbelieving Jews whom Paul laments. His people are those God has graced with faith.

That's not so. Paul is lamenting over his people Israel because he too was an Israelite.

235 posted on 11/06/2007 2:25:56 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip

“His people” was not referring to Paul’s people but to the quoted verse which speaks of God’s people — “Hath God cast away his people? God forbid...”


236 posted on 11/06/2007 2:34:21 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Gosh, I think that is a terrible reading of the Gospel. Paul isn’t criticizing Jews for not being better Jews. He’s criticizing Jews for not believing in the only name that saves, Jesus Christ.

But Paul is distinguishing between fleshly Israel and the Israel of God like right here:

"28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." [Romans 2]

237 posted on 11/06/2007 3:01:09 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
“His people” was not referring to Paul’s people but to the quoted verse which speaks of God’s people — “Hath God cast away his people? God forbid...”

Not so. The "his people" are the "Israelites" of which Paul is one. Read it:

"Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I [Paul] also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, the tribe of Benjamin" [Romans 11:1]

238 posted on 11/06/2007 3:05:08 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip; 1000 silverlings; Lord_Calvinus; tabsternager; topcat54
I was clarifying my use of "His people."

God's people are not the same as Paul's people. Some are; but not all. Paul's people, his lineage, as he says, are those of the physical circumcision, the Jews.

God's people, all believing Jews and Gentiles, are those whose hearts have been circumcised.

"For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision." -- Romans 2:25

And which Jew or which Gentile can keep the law perfectly?

NONE.

So the physical circumcision means nothing and profits nothing.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." -- Romans 2:28-29


239 posted on 11/06/2007 3:20:16 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: tabsternager
[An Idol being put in after the destruction is not what Matthew says.” ]

Take that argument up with Martin Luther, for he was the one who made that statement. Martin Luther knew both Luke and Matthew weren’t about some future “third” temple event because he obviously knew that there is no “third” temple mentioned anywhere in the Bible, and for very good reason — because Christ is the Temple.

My goodness, you sound like a Roman Catholic appealing to a Church Father!

The Temple that is described in Matthew is not the Lord's Body since no abomination of desolation can stand in it!

As for the Temples mentioned in the Bible, the Temple (Herods) was the one that was started when the Jews returned to the Land (Haggi 2:9).

Now, as for a third temple that is the temple rebuilt during the Tribulation and the anti-Christ will sit in claiming he is God (2Thess) and that is what the Lord is referring to in Matthew 24.

There is 4th Temple, in the Millennial reign as well,where Christ will sit and the Son of David (Ezek.40-48)

Read Matthew 24 and Luke 21 again objectively. If you do that, then you will see that both Gospel writers were relating the same message, the same warning, the same signal to flee the city — i.e. the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and the end of the Mosaic Age (not the “end of the world” as people like LaHaye would have you believe).

Read what the passage actually say and stop trying to twist the readings into something the do not say.

The Lord points back to Daniel and the abomination of desolation (Dan.12:11) and when that is set up in the Temple, that causes the Temple to become defiled and sacrifices to cease.

Luke is talking about the events of 70AD, Matthew isn't.

They are talking about two different events and that is why they read differently, one making mention of the Abomination of desolation and one not.

One in the past, and one in the future.

240 posted on 11/06/2007 3:24:27 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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