2 Timothy 1:16-19 - Onesiphorus in Purgatory???

Churchmouse's musings ^ | Monday, July 17, 2006 | Churchmouse

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.

[Mad Dawg]

Why do you set up the opinions of 2nd Century Jewish rabbis (opinions for which we have no evidence prior to Our Lord's crucifixion) as authoritative over the Church of Christ?

Isn't this really just another flavor of the Judaizing error Paul condemns in Romans and Galatians?

I think this is a characterization which takes a while to grow on one. I know when I was at VTS I was much taken with the Pro-Luther/anti-Filthy Papist argument that the Rabbis at Jamnia had produced the real deal. The notion that Paul, many of the evangelists and even our Lord Himself seem to quote the LXX rather than the MT was something I learned here on FR.

But I mean to say I can see the power of sort of the echt, vrai,sho' 'nuff OT being what is presented as the "older" version, the Hebrew one. It fits with the Protestant sense that the real deal for Christianity was the early, early to the point of being beyond our historical reach as far as details are concerned, Church.

It interests me that I think all the major schools of the Buddhadharma assume that the teaching will grow corrupt and that sooner or later a new Buddha will have to come and help out the bodhisattvas in restoring the saddharma (or what I am technically calling 'the real deal'.) Similarly in Hinduism there are at least a few strands which maintain the Vishnu has to be incarnated every once in a while (a long while, to be sure) to restore things spiritually.

To believe that the Holy Spirit has continued to work with the extremely and obviously earthen vessels (in my view vessels fit in themselves only for the most unmentionable uses) in not only preserving but guiding the development and refinement of Christian teaching is to take a stand quite contrary to that of many if not most religious attitudes.

On the one hand, One of the things that makes me glad to be Catholic is that I have a sense of gift piled upon gift, wonder upon wonder, grace upon grace, shaken down, pressed together, running over. NOT only did He actually pitch His tents among us, but he STILL guides us. Not only was a girl of an insignificant part of a tributary, barely iron age, tribal people the Mother of God, but a bunch of corrupt Italians, and even Poles, Germans, and - gasp! - French (St. Catherine Laboure, forgive me and pray for me! It is such a wonderful comeuppance for me that one of my friends would turn out to be a French Peasant girl!) people can be astonishing witnesses to His love and teachers of His Gospel.

I think the Gospel is never, or rarely at any rate, what one expects, but always an astonishment, and always better than one would have dared to hope.

[Ottofire]

I am sorry that one apology was not enough. I will refrain communication with Mad Dawg.

[Mad Dawg]

well maybe Im wrong but I think some think of purgatory as a second chance place, where thay can do what they want here on earth but they think they are good enough to be saved and if there was some things they indulged in well purgatory will take care of it, you asee that is a round about way of thinking it as a second chance.

SOME may indeed think of Purgatory as you describe it. But I'd bet a lot, if not most of those (as long as we're speculating about what "some may" do) are Protestants who use that misunderstanding as an excuse to disbelieve in Purgatory and to castigate those who do believe in quite a different doctrine.

My own guess would be that anybody who thinks he's "good enough to be saved" is in trouble.

we should be willing to work together as the one unity of all those who acknowledge Christ as the one and only savior and then work out the differences as brothers and sisters IN CHRIST!!!!!

Barring my allergy to exclamation points, I'd agree. Since this is a verbal medium, I think the careful and mindful use of words and language matters a lot. You say "some need to quit fooling themselves," and I guess we'd all agree that self-deceit is harmful to everyone involved.

But, you know, arguments can be made from Scripture that not all traditions are "traditions of men", and not all teachings are "men's doctrines". Now you might not agree with those arguments, but there are reasonable and intelligent people of good and pious will who do agree with them.

To characterize such people as "fooling themselves" and then to address and denounce a doctrine of purgatory which is most definitely NOT that taught by the Church -- do you think that is "working together" or "working out the differences as brothers and sisters in Christ"? I would agree with you that those who are counting on a "second chance" after they die are in grave peril. Can we also agree that even the forgiven still have scars on their souls left by the self-inflicted damage of their sins?

[Wakeup Sleeper]

I hear what you are saying BUT! Christ already paid the price, there is no self righteous purgation. You are to accept Christ fully by obeying His commands in life not by thinking the rest will be purged, if you are save already then what is a need for a purgation? makes absolutly no sense my friend, and is absolutly not scriptual. We are to cease from our everyday foolishness of lusts and receive Christs grace of forgiveness for those who take on His name. There is no need for purgatory. Christs blood purges all things, not feel good Im ok as long as I repeat rituals, now when does the bar open so I can pick up some ladies, and then Ill just go to confesion or say some hail marys and Ill be all good then later Ill be able to purge out the rest. You see it dont work like that. Peace!