Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
The Bible says so:
Eph 1:11-14 : 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.
Eph 4:30 : And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
2 Cor 1:21-22 : 21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
There are others, but I think these make the point.
The “certitude of salvation” is a creation of the Gnostics which predated Christ, by the way.
Is that a theological term? I wasn't using it as such. I just thought that was a way to say "assurance", which comes right from the Bible.
All I was saying is that the story of the prodigal son was not designed to give a full picture of salvation.
Many times? Either God foreordains everything or He does not.
That's a fair point. I'm just not absolutely certain on the scope of God's plan. For example, I don't know if it is part of God's plan that I put on my left shoe first this morning. It very well might have been, but I am unsure. I think there are verses that lean toward this, so I would never argue against it. So, what I AM sure of is that God ordains everything that is a part of His plan.
There should be serious scholarship behind it conducted by people I have reason to trust. For example, the preface to my NIV says that it was put together by "over 100 scholars working directly from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts". Later it says: "The fact that participants from the United States, Great Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand worked together gave the project its international scope. That they were from many denominations - including Anglican, Assemblies of God, Baptist, Brethren, Christian Reformed, Church of Christ, Evangelical Free, Lutheran, Mennonite, Methodist, Nazarene, Presbyterian, Wesleyan and other churches - helped to safeguard the translation from sectarian bias". That sounds pretty good to me. :)
We don't recognize that the RCC gets to decide what the Bible is. God decided through His Church. And as WM very aptly noted, Jesus never accepted the Deuterocanonicals either:
Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.
Justice? Why, FK? Why not love or mercy? Do you suppose that the “Justice” of God is like that of some Middle Ages absolute Ruler? Is God’s “Justice” something we can describe or understand?
I see God's justice as defining itself. So, when God wipes out thousands of people in the OT, that is justice because God did it. No human would have the power or wisdom to approximate it. I would agree that sometimes God's justice does not appear to match human justice, but it is not for us to question. If God had said "The wages of sin is a slap on the wrist", then I would have been fine with that as God's justice. But He obviously said something very different. :)
It sounds as if God to the Western mind kills to satisfy some sort of divine “pride”, more something to be saved from than saved by.
I've seen several post this and I have never understood it. What would pride have to do with God carrying out an earned sentence?
One could conclude that even though we can be “saved” from the wrath of this baleful “god” by the horrible death of His Son, wouldn’t it be better just to conclude that this god doesn’t even exist? Isn’t that what much of the West has done?
I may not be following you, but the problem would seem to be what does one then do with the scriptures? To eliminate the God who metes our justice is to eliminate the God revealed to us in the OT. I don't see that as a good option. :)
AH, so does God actively ensure that man is sinning so that His Plan is fulfilled? Or does God know what will happen? We have discussed simultaneity before and how God views time. Your explanation makes it sound like it is God's plan that man sins, and that God ENSURES that man does it so that His plan is fulfilled.
This is a key question, I think.
There is no one qualified to judge God, so I don't understand the suggestion.
If man is worthless and has no free will - because we "all" know that God can only be supreme if man is absolutely crushed and is nothing - then WHOSE deeds will be judged, as the Bible suggests over and over? God or man? When the Bible says that "man will be judged based on his deeds", does the Bible actually mean that God will be, because HE has "ordained" it and ensured that man sins - and man cannot do anything BUT sin?
I am beginning to see that the "reformed" theology has an incredible problem here... God is responsible for sin... While you may deny it, clearly, that is what you seem to believe. That is where this heresy takes you. In your attempt to overstate God's sovereignty, you end up accusing God of planning and ordaining sin...
FK, you are better than that. Run, do not walk, from this ridiculous theology.
Regards
I wrote: Where does Paul say that they are immune from returning to that style of life?
I associate myself with BD's most learned response. :)
His response ASSUMES that a person will CONTINUE in Christ. Must I repeat 1 John 5:12 again? Ephesians 2 is presuming that the Christian will continue - and will be saved in the end. It doesn't say that one CANNOT fall away, that is jumping to conclusions.
It is righteous to preach against backsliding.
Why? You are "already" going to heaven, no matter what you do. God has "already ordained it", so no matter what you do, good or bad, you are going to heaven... Yes, I know, it is a twisted theology, but that is the essence of it.
OK, I'll bite. Where does he say that? BD already showed that Paul said that can't happen
I disagree with BD's explanation.
Paul is dressing down the Corinthians who are causing dissension. He ends with them in 1 Cor 3:17, as we have previously discussed. He then continues all the way up to 1 Cor 6, again addressing Christians. Paul is not writing to pagans, friend, but to Christians who need some help. Perhaps you should sit back and read the first 6 chapters of 1 Cor.
Regards
“If God had said “The wages of sin is a slap on the wrist”, then I would have been fine with that as God’s justice.”
FK, why do the wages of sin being death necessaily require that God is the author of death? Is God’s justice death? I can see God allowing it as merciful, but just? Why isn’t this concept the parent of atheism?
“To eliminate the God who metes our justice is to eliminate the God revealed to us in the OT. I don’t see that as a good option. :)”
I’ll grant you that it will eliminate a Western misconception of the God revealed to us in the OT. Personally, I see that as a good thing. :)
Both. One evidence is that the timing of events as they happen just cannot be by coincidence. It's TOO perfect to randomly happen by chance events controlled by a myriad of humans. God is not just a spectator, He's actually in the game.
Your explanation makes it sound like it is God's plan that man sins, and that God ENSURES that man does it so that His plan is fulfilled.
God put the tree in the Garden and then He let the serpent in. He also did not give Adam and Eve the wisdom to know how to combat the serpent. What do you suppose God was thinking when He did this?
If man is worthless and has no free will - ...
If man was worthless, then I can't imagine why God would have created him. We don't say man is worthless.
When the Bible says that "man will be judged based on his deeds", does the Bible actually mean that God will be, because HE has "ordained" it and ensured that man sins - and man cannot do anything BUT sin?
No, when we are judged for reward it will be based on our deeds. In addition, only the lost are trapped in sin. The elect have been set free and are free to do good. God, of course, ordains what that good is going to be.
In your attempt to overstate God's sovereignty, you end up accusing God of planning and ordaining sin...
I didn't know it was possible to overstate God's sovereignty. We know already that you limit it by having man be in control of his own destiny, and that man performs many of the functions reserved only to God. Are there other ways God's sovereignty is limited according to Roman Catholicism?
Respectfully, Dr. E, you are being a wee bit theatrical, imo.
I would say no such thing. The New Covenant is announced in the Old Testament and it is intended for Hebrew Israel. Surely, Isaiah did not think of "extended" Israel when he wrote that.
I do not "doubt" the Old Testament. I just don't interpret it the same way as you do.
I could level the same inquiry to you: do you doubt what Christ taught? If not, then you would know that He specifically forbade that the Apostles go to the Gentiles and Samaritans. Nothing in His ministry was ever intended for anything but Hebrew Israel.
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel [Mat 10:5-6]
In fact, the Gospels tell us that he was SENT for the lost sheep of Israel and not for Gentiles.
When Christ says that he came to fulfill the law and the prophets he was not speaking of the Gentiles who were not under the law.
Nothing in Christ's ministry can be construed to be anything but a correct interpretation of the Old Testament. Nothing can be construed to be directed at anything but the Jews, for the Jews and Judaism.
The extended Israel idea is a letter-day evolution of which even the Apostles were amazed and knew NOTHING of.
Our heart is not our nature, FK.
2 Cor 5:17 : Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation ; the old has gone, the new has come!
That is true to the extent that we now believe in Christ as our God and Savior of the world, whereas before we didn't. It doesn't mean our nature has been made perfect and pure!
We still sin and are drawn to sin. We still have a sinful nature. If we are a new creation than this new creation is anything but perfect! That would mean that God makes imperfections! Did He replace one defective nature with another?
No, sir. We are not righteous and perfect in our nature, but in God's eyes — the way Job was. He knows that true Christinas are (in their hearts) imitating and immersing all their mind and soul in Chirst. In doing so, them make themselves acceptable to God. By His grace, of course. Never by our nature.
How does 1 John 5:12 help you here? All that says is that one who has the Son has life, and one who doesn't, doesn't. There is no implication at all that it is possible to lose the Son once one has Him. As I recently posted, these verses, however, all say that once one is saved he will not become unsaved:
Eph 1:11-14 : 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.
Eph 4:30 : And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
2 Cor 1:21-22 : 21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
I suppose only in the Apostolic faith is God's guarantee not a guarantee.
FK: "It is righteous to preach against backsliding."
Why? You are "already" going to heaven, no matter what you do. God has "already ordained it", so no matter what you do, good or bad, you are going to heaven...
Because the Bible says so:
Rom 6:1-4 : 1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means ! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
God's plan for all His children is to live a new life, not fall back into backsliding. We do not live our lives as Christians in order to earn enough points to get into Heaven. Regardless that we are already saved and have assurance, God still has great plans for all of us while on this earth. We recognize that and want to serve.
I thnk you need to heed your own advice, BD. There is plenty of evidence that He did not address His ministry to the Gentiles and that He Himself states that He was sent for th lost sheep of Israel.
The expressions relating to the "world" come form His Apostles but nto from Him.
Then you throw in this: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
The word "nations" in this case in Greek as well a sin Hebrew is used interchangeably to mean Gentiles as well as Hebrews/Jews. They both actually mean "unbelievers," and even in the OT some Hebrew tribes are mentioned as "Gentiles."
There is no proof whatsoever that the vsere is meant for the Gentiles. Nor are we absolutely sure that this verse was there in the original, because we don't have the original!
And knowing that multiple verses have been added by Christan scribes makes that possibility very real because it is exactly what was NEEDED to carry the Gospel to the Greek and save the Church from destruction in Israel. The Book of Acts attests to that (Acts 13:46).
Mat 26:28, “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
The New Tesament follows the the New Covenant. That was predicted and mentioned in the Old Testament and under the Old Covenant. Isaiah does not hint that the New Covenant will be monopolized by the Gentiles. The New Covenant was prophesied for the Jews.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days [Heb 8:10]
No Gentiles there.
Sorry, Mary could have said "No." So many others do.
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7
Taken in your context, it follows that those who are evil received that from God as well.
It's that angry, spiteful, evil Protestant "god" again!
Sure it was. It shows that God loves us even when we debtray Him and are ungreatful to Him; He treats us with mercy we don't deserve, He gives in abundance, and accept those fallen away when they repent. If that's not being a full picture of salvation, I don't know what is!
Also ...John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
Well, the sin is against God, and someone has to carry out the punishment ("pay the wages"). Who else would do it if not God? Plus, this is clearly how the text of the OT portrays it. God took lives, a lot of them.
Is God’s justice death?
Sometimes, yes. Jesus also demonstrated God's justice, such as with the adulterous woman, so it isn't always about death.
Why isn’t this concept the parent of atheism?
I don't know why it would be. An all powerful God creates His creatures and they are His to do with as He pleases. Fortunately, He decided to save some, and all who come to Him will be saved. At the same time the wicked will be judged for their sins and forever separated from God. I don't see how any of this would lead to atheism.
FK: “To eliminate the God who metes our justice is to eliminate the God revealed to us in the OT. I don’t see that as a good option. :)”
I’ll grant you that it will eliminate a Western misconception of the God revealed to us in the OT. Personally, I see that as a good thing. :)
So, do I take it that you don't think God did all those things the text says He did in the OT?
The OT is not a full revelation and can only be understood through the lens of the Gospels in aprticular and New Testament in general. And the Gospels tell us that God is not how the Jews experienced Him. Nor did God appear on earth as men would have expected the King of Kings. That's because our idea of God is warped in human qualities. And that includes spiteful angry tyrant that the OT sometimes portrays. God is not the author of death--it is contrary to His nature, wich is Life. So, the only thing we can conclude is that either God did not smite all these people or that the Jews misinterpreted what happened and "credited" God out of their own ignorance.
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