Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[irishtenor]

So, in essence, you are calling me a heretic.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Most of those things you mentioned, Kosta, are the result of having faith.

chosen by the Father

be born again

be predestined

You're correct here, however. Being chosen by God, being reborn by God and being predestined do indeed precede faith and everything that follows.

[Forest Keeper]

Certainly salvation is conditional. We cannot be saved against our wills.

We don't need to be. God changes the wills of the elect so they will come to Him.

The verses from Mark and Matthew (several posts ago) have Jesus saying directly that man can lose his own salvation - by blaspheming the Spirit. Therefore salvation is conditional and no amount of twisting Pauline or OT verses can possibly gainsay it.

No, those verses were applicable to those who witnessed Christ working miracle's by the power of the Spirit, and then saying that Christ was demon-filled instead. That is no longer possible since Christ is now at the right hand of God. Those verses do not show a grace plus works salvation any more than James does.

[1000 silverlings]

Paul is speaking to the Thessalonicans, not to you.

the letters are written to the churches (yes "churches", not the one big church) and that's to the people in the churches everywhere at all time. Furthermore All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness 2 Timothy 3:16

[Kolokotronis]

"The verses from Mark and Matthew (several posts ago) have Jesus saying directly that man can lose his own salvation - by blaspheming the Spirit. Therefore salvation is conditional and no amount of twisting Pauline or OT verses can possibly gainsay it. No, those verses were applicable to those who witnessed Christ working miracle's by the power of the Spirit, and then saying that Christ was demon-filled instead. That is no longer possible since Christ is now at the right hand of God. Those verses do not show a grace plus works salvation any more than James does." I have to tell you, FK, Blessed Augustine really disagrees with you on this one. Take a look at his Sermon XXI on Matt. 12:32 http://www.haywardfamily.org/ccel/fathers2/npnf106/npnf1037.htm#P3866_1671330

[Kolokotronis]

This should be better:

"The verses from Mark and Matthew (several posts ago) have Jesus saying directly that man can lose his own salvation - by blaspheming the Spirit. Therefore salvation is conditional and no amount of twisting Pauline or OT verses can possibly gainsay it.

No, those verses were applicable to those who witnessed Christ working miracle's by the power of the Spirit, and then saying that Christ was demon-filled instead. That is no longer possible since Christ is now at the right hand of God. Those verses do not show a grace plus works salvation any more than James does."

I have to tell you, FK, Blessed Augustine really disagrees with you on this one. Take a look at his Sermon XXI on Matt. 12:32

http://www.haywardfamily.org/ccel/fathers2/npnf106/npnf1037.htm#P3866_1671330

[HarleyD]

But...you can surmise that angels cannot rebel against God— because they were created as obligate servants, so the only conclusion one can come up with is that God specifically created some angels to be discarded for no reason whatsoever! Absurd.

Well, that's what happened. Pretty much like why God planted the tree in the Garden. You can make up all sorts of things but them's the facts.

Otherwise you're into Open Theism.

[1000 silverlings]

Yes even bad examples serve a purpose. After all better to rule in Hell than serve in heaven those angels always say.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

the letters are written to the churches (yes "churches", not the one big church) and that's to the people in the churches everywhere at all time. Furthermore All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness 2 Timothy 3:16

Amen.

It's easy to see why the RCC is such an authoritarian outfit when they exclude so much of the world from receiving the Gospel and instead distill the love of Jesus through ritual and "other Christs."

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It didn’t help.

[HarleyD]

I have to tell you, FK, Blessed Augustine really disagrees with you on this one. Take a look at his Sermon XXI on Matt. 12:32

I would suggest this most likely is from one of Augustine's earlier sermons. Please note this blog and it's references about Augustine on perseverance. Perseverance: Owen, Augustine, and the Church Fathers . I also found the references to other church fathers to be equally as interesting on perseverance. They are very consistent with the Reformed Protestant view. Please look for these other gems of the Church fathers in the article. Here are a few.

Saint Augustine On the Gift of Perseverance

Clement of Rome gives plain hints of the firmness of true faith, and the perseverance of the saints in it to the end. When addressing the members of the church at Corinth, he says?[1] “Who has dwelt among you, that has not had an experience of, or proved, ten panareton kai bebaian umon pistin, your all-powerful, and firm or stable faith?” He also observes,[2] that “whereas it is the will of God, that all whom he loves should partake of repentance, and so not perish with the unbelieving and impenitent, esterizen to pantokratoriko boulemati autou, ‘he has established it by his almighty will.’ But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is his almighty will? And how is this matter settled and established by such a will of his?”

Barnabas, an apostolic man, bears testimony to the doctrine of the saints’ final perseverance: when he says,[1] that “he that hopes in Christ, sterean petran, ‘the firm and solid rock,’ shall live for ever;”

Tertullian was no stranger to the doctrine of the saints’ final perseverance. “Satan,” he says,[1] “cannot do anything against the servants of the living God, unless he permits,

I would check out many of the quotes of the early fathers. They are rather interesting. It is possible for man to fall away, but God maintains man's salvation and upholds him to see him home. Christians who are filled with the Holy Spirit cannot blasphemy against Him. He cannot deny Himself.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Excellent reference, Harley. If anyone matured as a Christian as he aged, it was Augustine. Just ask his mom.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

“Satan,” he says,[1] “cannot do anything against the servants of the living God, unless he permits."

AMEN!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Christians who are filled with the Holy Spirit cannot blasphemy against Him. He cannot deny Himself.

Another amen!

[HarleyD]

I am reading this excellent work by Henry Knapp on Augustine and Owen On Perseverance which this website refers to. Very insightful.

[jo kus]

I wrote: Paul is speaking to the Thessalonicans, not to you.

You responded: Ok, so we throw out 1 & 2 Thessalonians. What other part of the Bible do you want to throw out, Mr. Jefferson?

I don't recall saying we throw any parts of the Bible away, including the Deuterocanonicals of the Old Testament! All I said was that Paul was speaking to the Thessalonicans, not to individual Calvinists, in this case. Since when does that mean I want to throw out part of the Bible???

Regards

[jo kus]

the letters are written to the churches (yes "churches", not the one big church) and that's to the people in the churches everywhere at all time.

Can you give me a bible verse that makes your claim? I would be interested to see that, since your speculations STRONGLY hinge upon this idea that Paul was speaking to you, 2000 years later... Since you are a "sola scripturist", can you show me from Scriptures alone where we get this idea from?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Yes, it is profitable. So is almsgiving and fasting. I don't see anywhere in the bible that "only the scriptures are profitable for reproof, etc."

Thanks for your response. I am looking forward to your proof texts.

Regards

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You will be even more of a force to be reckoned with. 8~)

[irishtenor]

If it was intended for someone else, we don’t need to read it. If it is intended for everybody, we need to read it. You said Paul was speaking to the Thessalonicans, meaning it doesn’t pertain to us, therefore, we don’t need to read it and we can throw it out.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I would be interested to see that, since your speculations STRONGLY hinge upon this idea that Paul was speaking to you, 2000 years later.

Fascinating. By your reasoning, none of the books of the NT outside the Gospels was written with you or me or any Christian today in mind.

No wonder you have such a need for an earthly administrator.