Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
In Calvinism, the Good guys kidnap the bad guys and turn them into good guys. It is the exact opposite.
LOL!!! Exactly right.
Are you saying that the Calvinists become an equal of the Holy Spirit? You haven’t been talking to the Mormons have you? :)
No one can take them out of His hand. No.
But they can freely walk out if they so desire. Unless they’re preprogrammed sheep, I guess. :)
No, what FK was saying is that under our scenario all men are already going to hell and that God rescues some of us from that situation. It's all God, none of us.
Yes, I see.
Makes you wonder though, what’s the point. God could have stopped with the good 2/3 of the angels and not had to have Jesus go through His Passion at all. Would have been much neater. And we wouldn’t be using our free will to argue about, well, our free will and its place in His universe.
Really? What happens to sheep when they stray?
How think ye? if a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. (Matthew 18:12-14 KJV)
Sorry Mark, you may not like it, but if you are one of his sheep, you will not get far should you "so desire" to "freely walk" out of his hand.
So tell me Mark, do you believe that you are one of Christ's sheep?
If so, what is the probability (based on scripture) that you can freely walk out of his hand and he will not seek you out and find you and carry you back into the fold?
Prodigal Son - His father’s love, however he suppressed it, was always known to him.
The Father - His love for his son never left him.
He doesn’t let go of his own.
There is nothing “in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. “
(and if I’m part of creation, then that includes me. If I made myself, then that excludes me.)
The question was, "Are we Christians?"
And you still haven't given us any reason why you would deny Forestkeeper, Alamo-girl, 1000silverlings or myself the name of Christian.
Please give us the "non Christian views" you mentioned as reasons for labeling Forest Keeper, Alamo-Girl, 1000silverlings and myself as non-Christians.
The shepherd lived with the sheep, ate with them, slept with them blocking the doorway to the sheep fold,which was made of stones and if a lion attacked, gave his life for them.
Since Christians follow the Good Shepherd and are completely dependant upon God for all of their needs, and do not go their own way like goats, we know that we are sheep.We accept that our good shepherd gave his life for us.
Thank you. That's beautiful.
Let’s take a closer look at this verse.
“And if so be that he find it...”
If.
It doesn’t say that he definitely finds it, just that he tries. If we are bound and determined to deny God, then we can. God wants us to be with Him, agreed.
We just differ on the extent of control that God exerts. Forced praise, forced allegiance, forced worship is nothing. If you love something, set it free, right?
I believe that I am one of His sheep. I do believe as well that I can deny Christ and leave His fold. I’ve seen a few people that, externally anyway, appeared to me to be the very model of a saved Christian, yet, after harsh circumstances or ill use, have hardened their hearts and left the Church and Christ.
Yet, it was up to the son to repent. The father never stopped loving his son; yet it was up to the son to come back.
Both conditions must be in force. But, under a Reformed parable, would the father not have gone out and forced the son back home?
Are you suggesting that Jesus can't find some of his sheep?
Do you think that if Jesus actually went looking for a lost sheep that he could not find it?
The sheep have no choice in whether or not they are brought back to the fold. If Jesus finds them, he carries them back. He doesn't ask them if they want to come back. He picks them up, and He puts them on his shoulders and He carries them back to the fold. He loses none of those whom his Father has given him.
What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. (Luke 15:4-5 KJV)
Now Mark, do you believe that you are one of Jesus sheep?
Actually, I did.
Gnosticism and Marcionism are at the core of Calvinism.
Many of the new non denominational churches have a healthy dose of Montanism.
And the Protestant Reformation is based in part upon the ideas of Novatian.
So, to the question of being non Christian, well, at what point does heresy become non Christian?
Well no they can't. He guards them jealously. They are a gift from His Father. I learned in Sunday school that when a sheep, not a goat, was prone to wandering, the shepherd broke its leg and then until the leg healed, the good shepherd carried the thing around, even in his bosom. The resulting closeness over the weeks caused the sheep to bond with his shepherd and after the leg was healed, he wandered no more.
Actually, according to your definition, Marcionism would be more in line with those who reject the teachings of the Old Testament about God. That sounds closer to Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
Lotsa verse out there. If Matthew doesn’t work, we may seek out Luke. :)
I believe that I am one of His sheep; and I hope and pray that on those occasions that I stray that He may help me to find the Via again.
The way that I’d read these verses is that Jesus is indicating that the lamb should or ought to or usually is wanting to return. Especially when you read further about the Prodigal son. It is all sequential and really part of the same parable. Read the verses:
13
After a few days, the younger son collected all his belongings and set off to a distant country where he squandered his inheritance on a life of dissipation.
14
When he had freely spent everything, a severe famine struck that country, and he found himself in dire need.
15
So he hired himself out to one of the local citizens who sent him to his farm to tend the swine.
16
And he longed to eat his fill of the pods on which the swine fed, but nobody gave him any.
17
Coming to his senses he thought, ‘How many of my father’s hired workers have more than enough food to eat, but here am I, dying from hunger.
18
I shall get up and go to my father and I shall say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19
I no longer deserve to be called your son; treat me as you would treat one of your hired workers.”’
20
So he got up and went back to his father. While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him, and was filled with compassion. He ran to his son, embraced him and kissed him.
21
His son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you; I no longer deserve to be called your son.’
The son repented. First repentence, then return to the fold. The father always loved his son. God always loves us. He makes it possible for us to come back. The shepherd leaves the flock to find the lost sheep and enables it to come back. Footsteps in the sand, as it were.
God does not reject us; it is up to us to accept or reject Him. The Prodigal Son is strong evidence for Catholic theology.
I'm not doing your work for you, Mark. You said Alamo-girl, 1000silverlings, Forest Keeper and myself held "non Christian" beliefs.
What specifically are those "non Christian" beliefs, because none of us believes in "Gnosticism, Marcionism, Montanism nor in Novatian"?
What beliefs do we hold that you have labeled as "non Christian?"
How about semi-Marcionism?
The part about throwing out the NT except Paul, and grudgingly, Luke.
AMEN!
Really?
I’ve never heard of such a thing. What if there was a bunch of them?
Snopes agrees with the story. Fascinating.
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