Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Who are your 12 apostles?
Nice slight of hand. We do not claim the title of apostle for anyone today. But if you were to ask me who in the Catholic Church hold the Biblical offices of episkopos, presbuteros or diakonos mentioned by Paul I could give you an answer but I am afraid that it would go into the thousands.
i’m interested to know what communion means with regard to saints in that version of the creed (i have no idea really... i seem tecall hearing communion of saints in catholic school at somepoint but it’s not part of the nicene creed in the orthodox parishes i’ve been to...
Who was the last Apostle?
I would contend that it is the Catholic position that the extreme and demonstrable variation in the actions and beliefs of individuals claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit in the absence of spiritual authority could only be because:
1. The Holy Spirit is schizophrenic
2. The Holy Spirit is misleading people
3. The people are schizophrenic
4. They are misinterpreting the Holy Spirit
5. They are listening to something else
6. They are following their whims and trying to use the Holy Spirit’s guidance as justification
In the case of David Koresh or Jim Jones or Charles Manson, and that style of individual, I’d say it was a combination of 3,4 and 5. The ones that need measuring up for a wraparound jacket.
In the case of most Protestants that I know, it’s 4,5 or 6, with most of them predominently 4 or 6. Else you don’t get the thousands of different denominations and the millions of different individual doctrines. You get one. You guys can’t have it both ways.
To God be the glory!
Where are the episkopoi in your church?
I keep reading some fantastic revelations as I catch up on this thread. Am I to conclude that you think that God is a combination magician and Santa Claus who will grant you three wishes if you simply ask for them?
If Matthias was chosen in error, then why was that error not corrected in Scripture?
Likewise, Cornelius received the Holy Spirit directly from God. Peter recounts this three times in Acts.
"and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also." (1 Corinthians 15:4-8)
-A8
If he wasn’t chosen in error, then how could 120 plus disciples choose him and when did they lay hands on him to confer the succession since he took another’s place?
I couldn't agree more. The problem is that a man cannot, on his own, know whether the Spirit in his individual case is the Spirit or the satan disguised as an Angel of Light.
We know—as long we hold on to the teachings of the Church handed to the Apostles by Christ in Person—that we will not embrace the disguised Angel of Light. Those outside the Church have nothing to assure them of that.
A good tree will produce good fruit, but that fruit can turn bad.
Why should I trust "a person" on his word who claims to be led by the Holy Spirit? Who is, in this case, really blaspheming against Him? The one who doubts or the one who spouts?
Gnosticism.
Like I said on other occasions, Gnostics hold St. Paul near and dear for many such words he used.
Because the road is narrow, one needs to hold on to something, lest he stray. That's why Christ gave us the Church. It is our anchor, so that we know as long as we stay within it s bounds we will be on that narrow road, letting God lead us to Him.
That describes your Protestant brothers, A-G. They make personal interetation, of the what they consider scriptures, the supreme truth.
????
The Catholics believe that some kind of Magical power is conferred upon priests and priests alone such that God will always turn bread and wine into his literal physical flesh and blood if the Priest says the correct magic words.
I believe that God will consecrate the sacraments at the request of any believer as there is nothing in scripture which suggests that this is some kind of secret power limited to priests.
No magic, no magic words, just the power of the prayer of a believer.
-A8
“Choosing the person to fill Judas’s office is not the same as conferring apostolic authority.”
“Matthias (and Joseph called Marsabbas) were both already apostles.”
“Being an apostle, and holding one of the Twelve offices, are not the same thing.”
And the authority for this is? Or, to be more specific, where in scripture is this authority found?
Even more interesting. Your posts would seem to indicate that your objections are not with the actions of the priests, but that it is limited to the trained priesthood of Jesus, and not open to anyone who wanders by. I take these posts as further evidence that you would want to be your own Pope.
What are the sacraments, to your understanding, and what is their definition? When, and how often do you ask God to consecrate the sacraments? When, and how often do you ask God to consecrate the Body and Blood? How is the prayer done? Do you sit, stand, kneel?
You can see reference to the apostolic authority also in 2 Cor 10:8; 13:10; 1 Thess 2:6; 4:2; Titus 2:15.
-A8
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