Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
However, you quoted Jesus previously. How does Jesus Himself answer the question? The metaphor of "sheep" is not used by Paul, so it is not appropriate to utilize Paul to answer Jesus' metaphorical question (and none of those quotes really answer the question, anyway). What does Jesus say on the subject?
Thanks
It's an oxymoron according to some.
Are you suggesting, though, that God does not know how things will turn out?
I'm not questioning God's omniscience, only the Calvinist doctrine of predestination as it affects man's free will and responsibility for his/her decisions.
We are always and forever clean because of the gracious sacrificial blood of our Lord Jesus.
Amen.
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." -- Romans 5:8
We are born sinning and we will die sinning. But by the inward work of the Holy Spirit as He sanctifies our lives, we will sin less and less until the end when we will be judged by His righteousness and obedience, and not our own.
Sure, we all "make decisions." I just made a decision to respond to your question.
And that decision was part of God's plan for His creation as He ordained from before the foundation of the world.
God's omniscience and man having free will are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
If God has known from before the foundation of the world that you will wake up late for work tomorrow and miss the bus, is there any chance whatsoever you will wake up on time and catch that bus?
I just can’t see it, E.; under the doctrine of TULIP, God will be judging God.
"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." -- John 8:12 "Be not afraid, only believe." -- Mark 5:36"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." -- John 5:24
You're varying from the specifics of the question. In your view, could you have decided not to? Or was your experience of making that decision an illusion?
If God has known from before the foundation of the world that you will wake up late for work tomorrow and miss the bus, is there any chance whatsoever you will wake up on time and catch that bus?
There is always a chance I will oversleep. A big chance. There's a very good chance I will oversleep tomorrow. If I decide to stay up late tonight, it's almost certain. God knows whether I will or not.
What if, just for the intellectual exercise, you sat down with scriptures and read them as though God had chosen you instead of you choosing Him?
We have a will but we surrender it to God.
I appreciate your suggestion. But it does not apply to seeing that under the doctrine of TULIP, God will be judging God.
Or if it does, I don’t see it. :)
Simple, sheep have shepherds.
I can agree with this as a shorthand way of putting it. And it doesn't mean we save ourselves by ourselves, or that we don't have choices.
That He can see every moment of all there is or has been or ever shall be doesn't mean that He chooses to look at every moment or be constantly looking at all of time simultaneously. We may be assured that He shall do a review/revue ... judgment without the facts might be seen as unjust so the actual events throughout all time are available to His use. There are scripture passages which indicate that God has looked to the end even before the beginning of a thing, such as His declaration regarding Jeremiah.
But there are passage which indicate God does not always choose to look to the end from the beginning. In fact, He has built an uncertainty principle into the spacetime portion of the universe we perceive ... which is uncertain from our perspective on time but which can be viewed and reviewed any time God so chooses. But scripture does not indicate that He is in constant review of all moments since the beginning. Our free choice may be sourced in the same concept of uncertainty which is hallmark of spacetime as we perceive it.
Yes we have choices. I can choose to sin if I so desire, God lets me if I want to. However, prayer, such as the example given us in the Lord’s Prayer, which we use as a guide, not a chant, strenghthens us to not sin, and then God’s will is done. Which is what we ask and what we know is better for us. If left to our own devices we are unruly children for the most part.
Christ will judge all things.
A man will either be judged "guilty" of his sins and therefore condemned, or he will be "acquitted" of his sins by the work of Christ on the cross as Christ takes on the punishment rightly due the sinner in order to present him blameless before God.
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." -- Romans 3:24-26"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
What could be clearer? Because God is all holy and "just" and hates sin, all sin must be redressed. Therefore God will declare the sins of His children as forgiven not by their own ability but by "Christ's righteousness" alone.
"For he hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" -- 2 Corinthians 5:21
Yes, "God is judging God" when He looks to His children and sees Jesus Christ. Do you suppose that is a bad thing for those who are His?
I just can't see it
Try harder. It's worth the effort. 8~)
I don’t see how you can see it. :) If, in your view:
1) All are guilty.
2) God picks some to forgive. (elect) They have no choice or free will in the matter.
3) God picks some to not forgive. (non-elect) They have no choice or free will in the matter.
How on earth, or in heaven, can group 2 or 3 be judged for being picked or not picked?
By reading scripture with a different frame of reference, you will understand some passages differently. For example, the T in TULIP, total depravity summarizes the doctrine of man being completely unable to save himself because he is spiritually dead.
The Incarnation and Atonement were necessary because man is not able in his condition to satisfy the offenses against an infinitely holy God. The only One with infinite worth to satisfy God is God himself. God judged the Godman.
There is no contradiction. As I asked last week, “Could YOU vote for baby-killer Hillary Clinton?”
You see in that question both free will and inability. I cannot vote for her, yet I can.
It is possible to have both a will free to do something and a will that won’t do something.
I agree with you, DrE, yet it seems some are granted more overcoming grace, or the progress more slowly, or something.
The Lord knows that I'm doomed if not for His grace and imputed righteousness.
II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[5] III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.[7] IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8] V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11] VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16] VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.[17] VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]
Of God's Eternal Decree
I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]
(The numbers refer to Scriptural references found at the site.)
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